7x65R - any thoughts please

[Heym SR20]

Muir - results.

Tested it last night - range about 60yds - not a solid bench but using sticks and seated position - so pretty stable.

Fired three shot groups with different loads of powder, but otherwise identical - ie same bullet (160g Speer SP), OAL etc.

52g - 3/4" group 1 inch low
53g - 2" group, spot on point of aim
53.5g - 1 1/8" group - spot on point of aim
54g - 2" group - slighlty high.

Ran out of daylight so didn't try the 54.5g or 55g loads. The 54g was showing slightly flattened primers. The 52g was very nice and mild.

Thus I think the rifle is telling me to load up some further rounds with 52g of IMR 4831 under a 160 gn Speer bullet, check the sights at 100 ys and go hunting. But I will load up some more with 53.5g and give those another try.

Pretty pleased at the results 3/4" from my first reload - OK not fractions of an inch groups, but we are talking a light barreled combo with 6 powered scope.

Thanks for all your advice gentlemen.

 

[ejg]

Not Bad, I would try t get as good a rest as possible. One can waste huge ammount of time and effort by trying to get decent information from a wobbly shooting position. Good idea to repeat the 52gr and 53.5gr at 100yds with a decent rest.
let us know how she is coming along.

edi

 

[Heym SR20]

Tried the 52g and 53.5g load over 100 yds yesterday from a solid rest. 52g definately seems to be shooting the best - 3 shots holding just over 1 inch with a 4th opening it up to 1 1/2.

Clearly there is still work to be done as still not as good as the factory RWS 162gn round which I had been using, but this is no longer imported, so not really an ongoing option.

I suppose the next is to play around with the length bullet is seated. Since it is a single shot I don't have any magazine worries. First loads have been to the 83.3 mm as specified in the load data. With a dummy load, I can put the Speer bullet approx 4mm further out and still not touch the lands - the ogive on that bullet is a lot further back than the cone point on the RWS bullet.

 

[Muir]

Nice grouping! 3/4" from a light sporter is excellent! when you play with seating length don't forget that to try seating shorter if you have the room in the neck.

If, somewhere down the road, you decide that crimping would be beneficial, send me three fired cases and I'll get Lee to make you a "Factory Crimp Die". I think they run $55 US. I have found crimping the magic potion for some loads.~Muir

 

[Heym SR20]

Thanks Muir,

I suppose the only down side is that the 52g load is pretty low velocity - have just been rereading the base load data - 55g give MV of 817 m/s, which in normal language is c 2,500 fps. We have a min legal MV of 2,400 fps, plus would like something that is a bit flatter shooting.

Going to try seating the bullets further out and see what happens.

The factory RWS, which have been using, but very difficult to get hold off was saying 2,800 fps on the box.

I can see myself becoming addicted to trying this load and that, and actually spending one hell of a lot more than bying the occasional box of ammo and going hunting.

Many thanks for yoru encouragement

Heym

 

[Muir]

I would really like to see chronograph data for your loads. It would be very telling, especially if you're getting flattening with loads off of maximum. Do you have a digital camera with which you can photograph the primers? Or can you compare the "flattening" to those primers in a factory round fired in your rifle? Again, it would tell a tale.

If, perchance, the 4831 isn't getting the velocity job done, you could begin with the 5% below the starting load charge listed for 4831 and use IMR 4350 and begin working up from there. BEfore so many other powders jumped onto the lists, 4350 and 4831 used to sit side by side on the burning rate charts here in the US. It would be worth a try and it (4350) is another fine powder for accuracy.

BEfore you invest in a keg of 4350 tho, I'd much rather see you pick up an inexpensive Chrony chronograph. Otherwise you're reloading in the dark. ~Muir

 

[Muir]

I read some data that showed a 154 grain bullet driven over 49.5 grains of IMR 4831 delivering 2500+ fps from a "single shot rifle" so with the 160 you might actually be in the 2400 fps ballpark with the 52 grain load. Just an FYI. ~Muir

 

[Nojden]

I found this interesting topic and have a similar question that I need to discuss: I have a Sauer &Sohn M54 double rifle in 7x65R that is regulated for 173 gr RWS bullets (probably TMR). I've tried a lot of different bullets like woodleigh 175 gr, nosler partition 175 gr, Norma oryx 170 gr, speer GS 160 gr and S&B 173 gr of which the S&B shoot the "best" double shoot groupings with 54,3 gr Norma MRP powder - about 9-10 cm/80 m. I'm not satisfyed with this result and looking for reloading data on the 7 mm RWS TMR 173 gr but can't find any. I would really appreciate if somebody might give me some advice on this topic......my components are:

Barrel 63,5 cm
Case Norma
Primer cci 250
powder: preferably Norma MRP, URP or perhaps 204 (have them allready)
C.O.L.?

Thanx!

 

[Southern]

Heym SR20 - congratulations!
This is an old post, but very interesting to me.
I shoot the 7x64, and a 7x57R /16ga combination gun.

Sellier & Bellot offer 173-gr and 139-gr ammunition, and their brass is good.
Their 173-gr 7x57R load is exactly to the regulation of that cartridge and the sights on my combi, so I suspect the same is true for the 173-gr for the 7x65R.

Norma, RWS, PPU, and sometimes Hornady offer loads for the 7x65R. Hornady makes good dies for it.
http://www.norma.cc/us/Ammunition-Academy/Loading-Data/7x65R/

From what I have read, the 7mm combination guns and drillings are the most accurate. I have a bunch of loads for the 7x65R which I have accumulated while looking at loads for the 7x57R and 7x64mm.

The Lee Hand Press does a great job of loading cases this size, and pulling bullets with the Hornady Bullet Puller die.

I think I have some 7x65R snap caps, if it is worthwhile to mail them to you. I don't know if there is any duty or other hassle with that.

 

[Heym SR20]

Nojden - welcome to the site. I started this thread back in 2009 - so good to see it resurected. drop me a PM with your email address and I can email you quite a bit of laoding data, but for your powders go to the Norma website - 7x65R - Norma

I have a box of 173g TMR RWS Ammo in front of me. Haven't a clue what powder it uses but COL is 83.20mm and muzzle velocity is 2530 fps, 770m/s. Can you get / have you tried a box of factory ammo and how does that shoot.

Also bear in mind that a double is a close range weapon and may well have been regulated for a closer distance - 50m. My suggestion would be get it shooting well enough on one barrel so you have the confidence for the 100 / 150 yd shot on a Roebuck,but you have a double for close range back up.

I have had my combination gun - effectively a single shot since 2009 and have used it a lot, and have never felt let down by the lack of a second quick shot, indeed you can reload more than quick enough. 9-10 cm at 80 yds is pretty good for a double - that's the boiler room of most deer.

 

[Heym SR20]

Southern - our posts crossed - I have some Hornady dies and they work well. I am using RWS brass and now on its fifth / sixth reload - brass still looks good but getting a bit hard so needs annealing. I probably ned to get some more and got exited when Pine Martin posted a link to S&B brass which is much cheaper than RWS, but they dont sell it in 7x65R. But RWS seems to last and is about Euro1 per case so livable with. I don't shoot that many rounds and have just finished my first box of 100 bullets.

Thanks for the offer of snap caps, but I actually have some already.

And I have just re-read the post. After my experiements with 162gn bullets, I then tried the 139gn Hornady's and those seem to work well over 51.5gn of IMR4831. Very easy shooting, and have taken Roe Deer out to 140 yds and foxes at about the same. Its sighted just a tiny bit high at 100 yds and I shot it the other day out to about 250yds at a rock across a loch using a mark on the rock as the sighting point. 3 shots inot about 3" about 4" low off a little hummock. Had been stalking in the woods up north seen nothing and was about to drive south so thought I should at least dirty the barrels.

 

[stag1933]

The 7x65R was my first stalking rifle in 1961.
It was an O/U DB twin trigger model built on a Merkel action and was regulated for the RWS 173grain/11.2 gramm bullet.
The scope was a Carl Zeiss `Zeilsechs` 6X42 on claw mounts. [Einhaktmontage]
The original primers used were Berdan but later Boxer primers were used which made re-loading easier.
When the bottom barrel was zeroed to centre the target at 100 yards with 175 grain softpoints the top barrel with the 130 grain load printed about 3 inches high so effectively I had 2 rifles on one stock and could shoot to point of aim up to 250 yards using the appropriate barrel and trigger.
Below is an old picture of the rifle , myself and a useful Lake District roebuck.
HWH.

Picture has failed to appear.

 

[Nojden]

Thanks for your help Heym sr-20 and Southern - i sent a pm to both of you
Fact is - I bookmarked this thread some 3 years ago when I started reloading because of the good info; especially the photos from the "german reloading book" (Dynamit Nobel perhaps?) which are very interesting. My first 7x65R rifle was a "single cartridge" Merkel K1 kipplauf - a wonderful, lightweight break open gun that I've used a lot for everything from fox to moose. For this one, I use nosler partition 175 gr, with 52 gr Norma MRP with very good accuracy and effect.

But my first experience with the sauer double rifle was a bit frustrating though.....quite soon I realized that this gun is both charming and awkward.....I have shoot very nice groupings with open sights on 50 m (2-6 cm) but with the claw mounted 1,5-6x36 scope on top, I hope to find a load that will match this on about 100 m. I know about the "regulation issue" when it comes to doubles....but since it's fun to shoot and reload, I must try

I haven't tried the factory cartridge for rws 173 gr tmr, but my guess is that my rifle is regulated with that one, as it is built in the 60-s.

 

[Southern]

Try the S&B 173-gr cartridges, too.

175-gr bullets with 52.0 gr of Norma MRP is still about 3.0 gr under maximum loading, so it should shoot well in your double rifle. You may not get but one barrel to line up to your scope and the other off a bit, but that is better than a compromise setting for 100 or 150 yards.

I had a .375 H&H SxS which shot several loads well to the same spot at 50 yards. I did not worry about the rest, because it was designed for use at 50 yards or less.

With my 7x57R, I had the same issue as you do, working up loads of different weights and velocities to shoot to my open sights ( 2 leafs ). At some point, I would like to get some rings for the claw mount bases. It is all fun, a great feeling of accomplishment every time I get a load to work well. How nice it would be to have 120-gr Nosler BT firing accurately at 200 yards with a scope. I am happy with one load, or one for every weight.

My 8x57IRS has a 2.5x Leupold in claw mounts, and the open leaf sight is regulated to 100 yards, so the scope is set to 175 yards right now.

 

[Adamant]

My Kettner 7x65R / 12b combination gun runs very well using Sellier & Bellot brass and the same company's excellent SPCE 175gn bullets over H4831 powder - these have a sharp cutting edge at the ogive which acts like a wadcutter, giving a perfectly cut entry wound so as to leave blood and cut hair at the shot sight in the event that the quarry runs on some way, requiring dog tracking. I bought the brass and bullets from Alan Wey and Mike Norris ordered the RCBS dies from the US for me. I keep meaning to order some Geco factory rounds to try, as I've found Geco brass to be better quality than S&B.

Accuracy in the 12b barrel is approx' 2-3 inches at 100 yards with Breneke slugs (1" low and 3" left of the rifle's POI at 100 yards) and gives approx' 3/4" three-shot groups from the rifle barrel, providing you allow plenty of cooling time between shots. Three rapid shots causes the POI to travel straight upwards about 4" as the rib heats up so fast.

The gun is currently set up for driven boar, with an Aimpoint Hunter on Recknagel swing-off mounts set up by Irwin at Alan Rhone.

 

[Nojden]

Sounds nice Adamant! But what experiences do you have with the S&B SPCE bullet? I´ve heard some people think it´s to soft for boar and moose - especially with the high velocities that you get in 7x65R (around 750-800 m/s), and for that reason I´d like to try the RWS TMR.

As Southern mentioned, one way to go is to set the scope for only one barrel and use the double gun as a single rifle when it comes to longer distances. But for me, 80-100 m is not a long distance and I´d like to find a load that works fine up to at least 100 m (i.e. groupings around 10 cm). I´m also a bit confused with the fact that several of my loads shows quite a big difference horizontally, not only vertically as is expected with a o/u.

 

[DW58]

As a matter of interest, have you considered turning your combination gun into a very workable double-rifle?

No, this doesn't involve a hideously expensive set of barrels - you simply obtain an insert barrel/Einstecklauf in the appropriate calibre and insert it into the upper barrel. The Einstecklauf can be zeroed to the existing rifle barrel by means of a series of grub-screws at the muzzle.

Trust me, this is a very effective solution - a friend of mine obtained a Winkler of Ferlach Bochbuchsflinte in 16b/6.5x57R and then bought a 6.5x57R insert barrel - this combination shot very well indeed.

eGun=Einstecklauf

 

[Heym SR20]

As a matter of interest, have you considered turning your combination gun into a very workable double-rifle?

No, this doesn't involve a hideously expensive set of barrels - you simply obtain an insert barrel/Einstecklauf in the appropriate calibre and insert it into the upper barrel. The Einstecklauf can be zeroed to the existing rifle barrel by means of a series of grub-screws at the muzzle.

Trust me, this is a very effective solution - a friend of mine obtained a Winkler of Ferlach Bochbuchsflinte in 16b/6.5x57R and then bought a 6.5x57R insert barrel - this combination shot very well indeed.

eGun=Einstecklauf

yes I have, indeed also thinking of a .22cf to turn it into a bergbuchsflinte or mountain rifle. But actually having a shot barrel gives more flexibility for what I do at the moment.

 

[DW58]

Yes I can see your point there - a combination gun is a useful tool here in Scotland.

 

[mchughcb]

I have a very accurate load for my 7x65R. 48gr of 2209 with a 175gr interlock.