All combination gun users

[Sash]

I had a Brno .222Rem/12 bore combination gun, and had a lot of fun with it.

I shot three species of deer with it, plus foxes, but eventually sold it because:
- I was mainly using the rifled barrel, and seldom took a shot with the shotgun.
- My eyesight started to deteriorate to the level where I did not feel confident taking a rifle shot at reasonable ranges (say, 100m) with iron sights ...
- ... so the scope stayed on almost all the time, and hence I used the shotgun even less....
- ... so I traded it in for a CZ527 in .222Rem

As asides:
- the rifle barrel accuracy was fine, but definitely in the >2MOA class, vs <1MOA for a pure rifle (based upon the two .222Rems I have now had extensive experience of).
- The Brno has an extractor for the rifle cartridge case, but this was very fiddly with small rimless rounds - sometimes I had to use another round to lever the fired case out. Probably works far better with larger cases, but I absolutely subscribe to the view that combis/doubles/drillings work at their best with rimmed cases (I also shoot 9.3x74R - ejects or extracts a dream).
- I had no need for 2 certificates - my FEO told me to apply for "a .222R/12b combination rifle/shotgun", and that is how it appeared on my FAC.

A bit of me still hankers for another combination gun, or a Drilling like @Heym SR20 , but in an English deer-legal rifle calibre - .243 (Brno made these, but they seem incredibly rare), or 7x57r. But I genuinely do not do enough mixed/walked around shooting to justify such a purchase. Yet....

 

[Blaser243]

Unless you’re on the continent or involved in driven hunting I just don’t see the attraction.
If you’re out stalking and prone to popping off at rabbits and pigeons as opportunity offers, you won’t shoot many deer. If you’re out for rabbits and pigeons you don’t need a full bore.
Then theres the 2 certs requirement for a single firearm.
Not for me thanks, I just don’t have that itch.

Combination guns aren't really optimal for driven hunting. Double rifles, perhaps. A semi-auto (where permitted) or a bolt action rifle will provide a greater rate of fire every time, which is what you want for a driven hunt. Combination guns are for situations where you don't know what will turn up. Really, they are a glorified gamekeeper's gun.

Not sure what you mean about 2 certificates? Do you mean to buy shotgun cartridges? I haven't looked the figures up, but its a very small minority of live game shooters that won't have an SGC if they have a FAC. In any case, an additional cost of £2 per year with no additional administrative or security burden, so hardly a hardship.

The key answer as to why to have one is because its fun (and useful).

One of my pieces of land has some lovely roe bucks on it. Once I've done with the fallow, quite frankly I've had enough of normal stalking for a few months and for several years hardly went out between March and August. The bucks I needed to cull could be easily dealt with during the rut or in October. However, taking the drilling out brings a different dimension to my shooting and brought back some of the excitement for those summer months.

You're mostly right - you don't tend to wander into a wood, shoot a few pigeons and then see a buck to shoot, but strangely it does happen! I had an evening last year where I'd been wandering along a field edge shooting the odd pigeon that clattered out of the trees only to turn the corner and see a pretty decent roe buck standing there looking at me. My deer aren't over-pressured, and get used to people blatting away at pigeons from time to time, so he stood for plenty long enough to present a shot.

Anyway, it's just a lovely gun to own. Most German Jaegers can't be entirely wrong.

 

[Heym SR20]

Good morning all, talk to me about combination guns, UK deer legal calibre.

Iv always wanted one and I'm looking at making the change, iv had an old midland gun company .243 for over 10 years and its tired and I was planning on replacing it with the combination gun in the same calibre, however the possibility of a looming lead ban this may not be so smart.

Iv got other calibres available in deer rifles, .270 and .30-30 for deer, but the lure of stalking round some of my permissions, sitting in a high seat with the option of the shot gun barrel for something else is very appealing.

what do you use? what would you get?

At one end there are a number of Brno guns in various different calibres - mostly 12 bore over .222, 243 or 308 or continental rimmed cartridges.

You also have a few winchesters, and Tikka 512 now made by maroochi as Finnclassic.

They are all good robust working guns. Not especially refined but strong and robust.

There are then the German and Austrian made guns made by various makers out of Suhl and Ferlach and elsewhere. Some have well known names such as merkel or kreighoff, others not do much. These were very old gunsmith made by hand with individual components hand fitted. 15 years ago there seemed to be a steady stream through the likes of Holts. I got lucky and wrote a cheque for £1300 (including all commisions etc) for mine. I was in Ferlach in 2019 and visited the gunmaker who made it. He quoted me €20,000 plus to build a similar gun. God alone knows what this would be today.

Modern offerings, Blaser, Merkel etc all still make combinations. I have played with the Blasers a bit. One was a 20bore over 300 Blaser with a 222 in the side rib. It was being used to shoot Marmots at 200 plus metres. Very accurate.

But a lot of the modern have weight well forward - makes them very good as a rifle, not so good as a shotgun. Or actually having shot a Blaser F16 clay gun, they handle like a modern heavy over and under weight forward clay gun.

My suggestion is to keep your eyes and find something you like. I wouldn’t worry too much about the calibre. 243 - now that min bullet weight has been dropped to 80gn, plenty on copper options that work well. Barrels on combination guns are typically 26” so plenty of barrel length for velocity. It also makes the rifle much quieter. On mine, there is not really much difference in sound from 16 bore to the rifle barrel.

Drillings - have three barrels, usually a pair of shotgun over a rifle. Some - notably those with 12 bore are pretty heavy and bulky. Those with 16 tend to be much slimmer and lighter and would handle like a fine game gun.

Advantage of a drilling is that you have a double shotgun with a rifle if needs be. Many drillings are fitted with an Einstecklauf (take out barrel) in 22 Hornet or rimfire which may or may not be useful.

Personally a shot barrel is fine for rabbits etc out to normal shotgun ranges. Foxes with a 7x65r is probably overkill, but they are dead.

 

[Heym SR20]

In terms of certificates, combination guns are treated as Section 1 Firearms and sit on an FAC. Mine is conditioned for Deer and any other lawful quarry.

Sights. Combination guns have a front bead and a rear sight that folds and flips up. On most Drillings when you select rifle barrel the sight flips up. On most combinations you need to flip it up manually.

Scope mounts - the best are claw mounts. If fitted properly and not buggered up, these are truly repeatable and take but a moment to put on and off. However when mounted they are quite high for cheek weld. I have a leather cheek piece so I get decent cheek weld. Most continental shooters had a much more head up stance and comb was on their chin.

Possibly the best all round sight, especially for older eyes would be a little red dot mounted on the rib. Gives enough accuracy to shoot deer, but also works on flying birds with both eyes open.

I like the flexibility a combination gives me. An evening potter for a late season Roe buck or a doe then turns into a stand by the pond for a duck for 20 minutes after dark as the moon comes up.

Or that bit of clearfell hasn’t got a deer in it, but it often holds snipe and woodcock and the dog needs a run. Scope and cheek piece into my bag, load up the shot barrel and see what we can find.

Or once coming off the hill without having seen a stag, a grouse starts clattering.

Most combinations shoot slugs close enough to point of aim that on driven boar you have two shots - rifle and then a slug.

My experience of driven hunting is that mostly you just get the one shot with little time to rack a bolt. A double gun does give you two shots.

 

[Dunwaters]

Combination guns aren't really optimal for driven hunting. Double rifles, perhaps. A semi-auto (where permitted) or a bolt action rifle will provide a greater rate of fire every time, which is what you want for a driven hunt. Combination guns are for situations where you don't know what will turn up. Really, they are a glorified gamekeeper's gun.

I was thinking of a couple of Swedish roe drives I was on, shotgun barrel for close in stuff on the move, rifle if it’s a bit further out.

Not sure what you mean about 2 certificates? Do you mean to buy shotgun cartridges? I haven't looked the figures up, but its a very small minority of live game shooters that won't have an SGC if they have a FAC. In any case, an additional cost of £2 per year with no additional administrative or security burden, so hardly a hardship.

Here, you need a separate cert for each firearm and caliber, so for a combination gun you need both a shotgun and a rifle cert.

The key answer as to why to have one is because its fun (and useful).

One of my pieces of land has some lovely roe bucks on it. Once I've done with the fallow, quite frankly I've had enough of normal stalking for a few months and for several years hardly went out between March and August. The bucks I needed to cull could be easily dealt with during the rut or in October. However, taking the drilling out brings a different dimension to my shooting and brought back some of the excitement for those summer months.

You're mostly right - you don't tend to wander into a wood, shoot a few pigeons and then see a buck to shoot, but strangely it does happen! I had an evening last year where I'd been wandering along a field edge shooting the odd pigeon that clattered out of the trees only to turn the corner and see a pretty decent roe buck standing there looking at me. My deer aren't over-pressured, and get used to people blatting away at pigeons from time to time, so he stood for plenty long enough to present a shot.

Anyway, it's just a lovely gun to own. Most German Jaegers can't be entirely wrong.

I agree that they are lovely things, but they’re just not for me. I have borrowed one a couple of times, but I have no desire to own one.

 

[jonylandrover]

Thank you all for the replies, some a little sceptical and most positive.

having spent many years on a particular permission of mine, roe deer and the occasional fallow cause havoc with crops of potato's and veg hence the rifle barrel needing to be deer legal, range is a non issue, 80 yards max.

but we also get plenty of pigeon and rabbits as well causing similar damage. popping out at first light and sitting in a high seat I have looking over the whole field is perfect for looking for wandering deer popping its head out of the woods looking for its breakfast of fresh cabbage laves. but some days it just doesn't happen. but I can guarantee the rabbits are out so dropping one with the shotgun as I walk back to the truck is easy, same with a flock of woodies dropping in when freshly planted ground is to be seen from the high trees round the field.

I have on occasion taken 2 guns, my 30-30 lever gun and the 12g, trying to sneak in to the field in the half light over the fence with 2 guns is less than quiet and inconspicuous. And that day Mr or Mrs Roe is stood looking at me already and they are quick back into the woods, (the woods are not a permission I have unfortunately) if I had just one gun, ready to go that morning I would have taken another out of circulation so the combo is what I think is best for me.

 

[jthyttin]

I was thinking of a couple of Swedish roe drives I was on, shotgun barrel for close in stuff on the move, rifle if it’s a bit further out.

Yes and in addition to roe, also fox, hare, lynx, wolf etc. (basically any game that shotgun is allowed for).

You'd want to have iron sights or at most a non-intrusive red dot (if you can use shotgun with red dot). And you'd only take rifle shot at standing game.

In my drilling, when you select the rifle barrel a rear sight pops up in the rib, about halfway from breech to muzzle. So it's also evident that you're going to take a rifle shot.

 

[Essexsussex]

I’ve always wondered what the risk of pulling the wrong trigger is and trying to shoot a pigeon with a 243 etc. is there a built in safety mechanism to prevent this sort of thing? Or just need to get it right?

 

[Sash]

I’ve always wondered what the risk of pulling the wrong trigger is and trying to shoot a pigeon with a 243 etc. is there a built in safety mechanism to prevent this sort of thing? Or just need to get it right?

Certainly on the Brnos there is NOT a built-in safety mechanism to prevent that - you have to be VERY aware of what you have loaded in which barrel.
The front (set) trigger was for the rifle, and the rear trigger for the shotgun.
I would only load a rifle round when I was either in position, or had seen a deer/fox etc - not for walking about when pigeons might come out.

 

[enfieldspares]

So how come these work?

Beautiful Winchester 12 gauge/30-06 combination gun

Beautiful Winchester 12 gauge/30-06 combination gun - GTA Gun auctions

www.onlinehuntingauctions.com

Such that I have seen for rimless cartridges (I have not seen a Winchester) work as a) they headspace on the shoulder just as with a rimless cartridges in a bolt action rifle and b) there is a captive spring loaded "stud" in the extractor. This is at right angles to the axis of the cartridge and where the groove is in the cartridge case. Loading a case pushes the "stud" down until the groove of the case is level with it. The "stud" then pops up and engaged into the groove. After firing and opening the gun the "stud" being engaged with the groove brings it out of the chamber. You then use your fingers to remove the exposed case in the usual way.

 

[enfieldspares]

Certainly on the Brnos there is NOT a built-in safety mechanism to prevent that - you have to be VERY aware of what you have loaded in which barrel.
The front (set) trigger was for the rifle, and the rear trigger for the shotgun.
I would only load a rifle round when I was either in position, or had seen a deer/fox etc - not for walking about when pigeons might come out.

Ouch! Yes I did that when I had a bochbuchsflinte but fired the 16 bore shotgun barrel when I was intending to use the 'scoped rifle barrel. It was a painful lesson. It was thirty plus years ago and cannot remember why. I think on this gun I had that the front trigger fired the top, shot gun, barrel.

 

[Essexsussex]

Ouch! Yes I did that when I had a bochbuchsflinte but fired the 16 bore shotgun barrel when I was intending to use the 'scoped rifle barrel. It was a painful lesson. It was thirty plus years ago and cannot remember why. I think on this gun I had that the front trigger fired the top, shot gun, barrel.

In which case, with my adhd and consequential occasional diverted attention my safety mechanism to not shoot a rifle bullet at a flying objective is to not have a combination gun. Helpful thank you and the other member responding on this.

 

[Blaser243]

I was thinking of a couple of Swedish roe drives I was on, shotgun barrel for close in stuff on the move, rifle if it’s a bit further out.

Here, you need a separate cert for each firearm and caliber, so for a combination gun you need both a shotgun and a rifle cert.


I agree that they are lovely things, but they’re just not for me. I have borrowed one a couple of times, but I have no desire to own one.

You only need to have it listed on your FAC, not on your SGC. As I say though, even if you are told you have to have a SGC to buy cartridges (arguably, they could be put on your FAC) then its £2pa for the SGC and no other bother.

I’ve always wondered what the risk of pulling the wrong trigger is and trying to shoot a pigeon with a 243 etc. is there a built in safety mechanism to prevent this sort of thing? Or just need to get it right?

You just load what you plan to shoot. I don't walk around with a shotgun cartridge and rifle cartridge inserted. Both rifle cartridges at the same time, yes, because they work off different triggers on the BD14, and I would only ever be firing them with a safe backstop. Worst case then, if I pulled the wrong trigger, would be an animal shot with either a non-legal (but still probably lethal) bullet or an animal shot extra-dead with a bigger bullet than intended. It's not happened yet though, and I doubt it will.

 

[Bouncingoffthelocks]

Going for a potter around they are brilliant, although yet to achieve the rifle shot, followed by flushed bird on retort! The Valmet/ tikka / Marocchi family, also give you the option to switch out shotgun barrels, combo barrels and double rifle barrels which I love the versatility of.

 

[Mr. Gain]

Depends how you want to use it.

My Blaser BD14 is 20ga/7x65r/.222 which is perfect for me. It’s a joy to own. Others might prefer two shotgun barrels, or two large rifle barrels and a small one. Depends how you plan to use it.

I now feel envy.

 

[enfieldspares]

Here's another system using spring loaded "studs" (here half moons) that come up into the groove on a rimless cartridge. You do give up the will to live after a few seconds but stick with it and all becomes explained.

 

[Mr. Gain]

I've owned a Brno .243/12ga, a Baikal .22 WMR/20ga and currently own a Zoli .222/20ga and a Krieghoff 7x57R/16ga drilling. My drilling gets the most use. Both guns have QD optics, including a red dot for the .222/20ga. Well-fitted, hight-quality mounts mean neither has any return-to-zero issues.
When hunting with either gun, I only load what I intend to shoot, so there's no risk of sky-ing a bullet or peppering large quarry. Opening the gun to change cartridges is quick and silent and has never cost me an opportunity at a fox or deer.
The odd shot at a pigeon, pheasant or woodcock while on a wander round doesn't send all the deer into the next county either.
Both guns handle well as shotguns and I've taken the drilling decoying and on small pheasant days with no regrets. The Zoli handles like a standard 20ga O/U shotgun.
The guns' low combs aren't ideal when their scopes are fitted, but the drilling now sports a Kalix Teknik CR2 adjustable comb that gives me a perfect comb height for scope or rib on demand. I like it so much, I'm tempted to get another for the Zoli.
Accuracy with the rifled barrels is good enough to take me out to over 150m on fox/deer. I've killed a dozen or so muntjac with the .222 and a handful of roe with the 7x57R, at ranges between 40m-180m, and all have fallen over tidily.
I tend to take the drilling or combination when I've not been on a piece of ground for a while, don't know quite what I'll find, and want to give it a thorough looking over. I'll also take it when I have the luxury of being out from dawn to dusk and can allocate different times to pursuing different quarry.
There are also 2 other distinct motivations: first, it causes me sorrow whenever I see a grey squirrel and have no means of shooting it, and a drilling or combination gun is an effective antidote; second, both the Krieghoff and the Zoli are attractive and well- made guns, the former especially, which makes them a genuine pleasure to use.

 

[Heym SR20]

Thank you all for the replies, some a little sceptical and most positive.

having spent many years on a particular permission of mine, roe deer and the occasional fallow cause havoc with crops of potato's and veg hence the rifle barrel needing to be deer legal, range is a non issue, 80 yards max.

but we also get plenty of pigeon and rabbits as well causing similar damage. popping out at first light and sitting in a high seat I have looking over the whole field is perfect for looking for wandering deer popping its head out of the woods looking for its breakfast of fresh cabbage laves. but some days it just doesn't happen. but I can guarantee the rabbits are out so dropping one with the shotgun as I walk back to the truck is easy, same with a flock of woodies dropping in when freshly planted ground is to be seen from the high trees round the field.

I have on occasion taken 2 guns, my 30-30 lever gun and the 12g, trying to sneak in to the field in the half light over the fence with 2 guns is less than quiet and inconspicuous. And that day Mr or Mrs Roe is stood looking at me already and they are quick back into the woods, (the woods are not a permission I have unfortunately) if I had just one gun, ready to go that morning I would have taken another out of circulation so the combo is what I think is best for me.

Sounds a perfectly good reason for needing a combination gun.

Combination guns do cause a lot of sucking teeth, especially as you cant add a bipod, moderator, a 56mm scope and an image intensifyer device and you only have one shot.

 

[Geoff9]

I've very recently got a Brno .222/12, going for a wander round tomorrow
Pic shows the first 3 shots I fired with the rifle at 50yds

 

[Smellydog]

I've very recently got a Brno .222/12, going for a wander round tomorrow
Pic shows the first 3 shots I fired with the rifle at 50yds
View attachment 401551

Not bad for open sights