American Lion Shooter

The No1 App in Europe for Hunting Area Management - MyHunt
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dead lion. So what? I really don't give a f---k about that lion or the affluent idiot that shot it. I'm tired of hearing about it every five minutes especially when christian children are beheaded or crucified in the middle east and no one seems to dampen a tissue over it.

Genocide it taking place as we wring our hands over a lion. How did we get to this place?~Muir
 
A better balanced view on it by a university type from down south on the news just, giving the example of the Skeleton coast lions, up from 25 to around 150 due to "Trophy" hunters financial input, she also commented on all the animals we kill to eat,passing without any fuss.
 
I was just thinking and reminiscing about some of the trips I have taken to Africa ...............a few years back mind.

1992 I hunted the Northern Transval with a good friend at the time and our wives. Nothing dangerous on the menu, plains game and it was unfenced at the time.
We had one day in the Kruger Park and entered near a town called Venda if my memory serves me correct. At the time one of the two Ph's had family working in the park as game rangers.

At the time there was a great deal of military goings on in the area as the Kruger borders Mozambique and at night the some of the locals were coming across the border to seek work in SA. Some were using pushbikes and with a passenger being carried on the back pannier. Kruger Park is an immense area, about the size of Wales I think, and after a short while the local Lion population took a liking to the locals peddling through the dark on dirt track roads in the middle of the night.

Needless to say the guy on the pannier was coping the Lion, and before long the rangers in the park had a problem. At the time some of the rangers patrolled the park on large pushbikes, usually with an FN strapped to the front. The Lions were no differentiating between the rangers and locals from Mozambique and for a while there was a real problem with Lions man eating. I was told this by the father of one of the Ph's who was a game ranger and stationed in the Kruger. In fact somewhere amongst the piles of photos I have a photograph of my then wife standing next to a huge pile of poachers snares picked up in just one section of the park.

I suppose the point of my short story is that at the time NO ONE in the western world had heard of all these people bring killed and eaten by Lions, or if they had of done maybe they would have cared? who knows, all I know is that on my return visit to Kruger in 2011 we had the privelage of driving one night through the park with a ranger in an open back land cruiser and had one of the most awesome experiences of seeing two huge male Lions walking down one of the tarmac roads and past our vehicle.

I didn't ask their names................;) but I am glad I was not on a pushbike!
 
Ps1 yes if you can,t draw the bow and hold it steady, then you should reduce the poundage, as to taking the shot, money talks, as in all forms of hunting.
 
When we consider energy;

[TABLE="width: 75%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 25%"]Projectile[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%"]Weight[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%"]Velocity[/TD]
[TD]Kinetic Energy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD].30-06 Rifle[/TD]
[TD]180 grains[/TD]
[TD]2600 fps[/TD]
[TD]2701 ft. lbs.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD].357 magnum Pistol[/TD]
[TD]125 grains[/TD]
[TD]1450[/TD]
[TD]583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light Spear[/TD]
[TD]2 pounds[/TD]
[TD]73.5[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Spear[/TD]
[TD]5 pounds[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Dart[/TD]
[TD]6 ounces[/TD]
[TD]103[/TD]
[TD]62[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Modern Arrow[/TD]
[TD]540 grains[/TD]
[TD]220[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light Dart[/TD]
[TD]3 ounces[/TD]
[TD]125[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Primitive Arrow[/TD]
[TD]500 grains[/TD]
[TD]165[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It seems obvious that, other than allowing the quarry to 'bleed out', arrows, even modern ones, have limited if any use, consistent that is with humane hunting.
Would anyone use a 30-06 for dangerous game ?
To be humane, without 'gambling', it seems logical to use a rifle and a big one at that, most BG rifles are intended to be used at very close range.
A modern broadhead is about 100 grains (7000 grains to the lb). The arrow shaft is the rest.
Anything dying from blood loss alone, may take a very long time to die, as here.
Humane?
Not in my book. My last comment on this.
 
palmer_mike said:
Was it a crossbow or a bow (afaik he's a fairly experienced bow shooter)?

tracked for 40 hours not 24

not sure it will have any effect on his medical career whatsoever, he's never made a secret of the fact that he's a big-game hunter before now......

certainly not covered himself in glory with this $hit storm and done everyone involved in hunting in Africa not favours at all!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be fair to say that if the lion was still alive 40 hours after being shot with an arrow then the wound was not a fatal one.
 
gixer1 said:
And how many massive hypocrites there are!

To me, the only person who can make a respected argument against any form of hunting is a full on Vegan, I at least respect their commitment even if I don't agree with them....anyone else is a hypocrite and just basically living by the old saying ignorance is bliss...

and I cannot believe some people condemn trophy hunting yet are happy to blow a pheasant out of the sky and call it sport, talk about double standards!

Would I want to hunt a lion, elephant, rhino, giraffe etc? - No, but I won't condemn others for it!

This guy didn't follow the rules and I'm sure he will pay for that but I won't stand with the likes of that t*at Ricky Gervais and condemn the sport overall.
Click to expand...

A lot of truth here. Nobody who eats meat can take the moral high ground over shooting. Added to the pheasant shooting scenario is the encouragement to provide and selectively shoot at high birds... that by definition you have a greater chance of wounding without killing.
 
kes said:
When we consider energy;

[TABLE="width: 75%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 25%"]Projectile[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%"]Weight[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%"]Velocity[/TD]
[TD]Kinetic Energy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD].30-06 Rifle[/TD]
[TD]180 grains[/TD]
[TD]2600 fps[/TD]
[TD]2701 ft. lbs.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD].357 magnum Pistol[/TD]
[TD]125 grains[/TD]
[TD]1450[/TD]
[TD]583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light Spear[/TD]
[TD]2 pounds[/TD]
[TD]73.5[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Spear[/TD]
[TD]5 pounds[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Dart[/TD]
[TD]6 ounces[/TD]
[TD]103[/TD]
[TD]62[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Modern Arrow[/TD]
[TD]540 grains[/TD]
[TD]220[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light Dart[/TD]
[TD]3 ounces[/TD]
[TD]125[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Primitive Arrow[/TD]
[TD]500 grains[/TD]
[TD]165[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It seems obvious that, other than allowing the quarry to 'bleed out', arrows, even modern ones, have limited if any use, consistent that is with humane hunting.
Would anyone use a 30-06 for dangerous game ?
To be humane, without 'gambling', it seems logical to use a rifle and a big one at that, most BG rifles are intended to be used at very close range.
A modern broadhead is about 100 grains (7000 grains to the lb). The arrow shaft is the rest.
Anything dying from blood loss alone, may take a very long time to die, as here.
Humane?
Not in my book. My last comment on this.
Click to expand...

well a good heart shot (with an arrow or suitably large bullet) will cause an almost instant loss of blood pressure and as the brain will only remain conscious for about 4 seconds without a supply of blood I'd not deem that very long, but hey you're the expert.
 
I am simply taking about relativities and the figures are not mine. Based on the likely and reasonable outcomes from a bow or a rifle shot, a rifle would seem more humane. You dont see many hunting guides armed with crossbows for the coup de grace.
[h=2]coup de grâce[/h] (ko͞o′ də gräs′)n. pl. coups de grâce (ko͞o′)1. A deathblow delivered to end the misery of a mortally wounded victim.
 
kes said:
When we consider energy;

[TABLE="width: 75%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 25%"]Projectile[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%"]Weight[/TD]
[TD="width: 25%"]Velocity[/TD]
[TD]Kinetic Energy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD].30-06 Rifle[/TD]
[TD]180 grains[/TD]
[TD]2600 fps[/TD]
[TD]2701 ft. lbs.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD].357 magnum Pistol[/TD]
[TD]125 grains[/TD]
[TD]1450[/TD]
[TD]583[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light Spear[/TD]
[TD]2 pounds[/TD]
[TD]73.5[/TD]
[TD]167[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Spear[/TD]
[TD]5 pounds[/TD]
[TD]37[/TD]
[TD]106[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Heavy Dart[/TD]
[TD]6 ounces[/TD]
[TD]103[/TD]
[TD]62[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Modern Arrow[/TD]
[TD]540 grains[/TD]
[TD]220[/TD]
[TD]58[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Light Dart[/TD]
[TD]3 ounces[/TD]
[TD]125[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Primitive Arrow[/TD]
[TD]500 grains[/TD]
[TD]165[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It seems obvious that, other than allowing the quarry to 'bleed out', arrows, even modern ones, have limited if any use, consistent that is with humane hunting.
Would anyone use a 30-06 for dangerous game ?
To be humane, without 'gambling', it seems logical to use a rifle and a big one at that, most BG rifles are intended to be used at very close range.
A modern broadhead is about 100 grains (7000 grains to the lb). The arrow shaft is the rest.
Anything dying from blood loss alone, may take a very long time to die, as here.
Humane?
Not in my book. My last comment on this.
Click to expand...

Ft/lbs is unfairly weighted towards velocity , my 300rum has tons of velocity and energy but it's not as good as a heavier slower bullet on bigger game

your argument is weak.
 
tackb said:
Ft/lbs is unfairly weighted towards velocity , my 300rum has tons of velocity and energy but it's not as good as a heavier slower bullet on bigger game

your argument is weak.
Click to expand...


Agreed, its pretty pointless as its all down to blood loss, if both a broad head and bullet hit the intended target area and make a hole they both kill...simple as that.
 
kes said:
I am simply taking about relativities and the figures are not mine. Based on the likely and reasonable outcomes from a bow or a rifle shot, a rifle would seem more humane. You dont see many hunting guides armed with crossbows for the coup de grace.
coup de grâce

(ko͞o′ də gräs′)n. pl. coups de grâce (ko͞o′)1. A deathblow delivered to end the misery of a mortally wounded victim.
Click to expand...
No but a lot with a knife, if we are going down the line of what's humane, then all hunting and fishing is out of the window.
 
Back to the topic of "shooting of Cecil the lion" - sounds like the kill was a windfall for Oxford! Reports are that more than $300,000 (sorry, couldn't find the pound sign on my American keyboard) has poured in as donations to the department that was doing the collar tracking of Cecil. It seems that the donations continue to pour in.

I bet if they had known that, they should have engineered his demise rather than waiting for some stupid twit to do the job for them.
 
Cootmeurer said:
Back to the topic of "shooting of Cecil the lion" - sounds like the kill was a windfall for Oxford! Reports are that more than $300,000 (sorry, couldn't find the pound sign on my American keyboard) has poured in as donations to the department that was doing the collar tracking of Cecil. It seems that the donations continue to pour in.

I bet if they had known that, they should have engineered his demise rather than waiting for some stupid twit to do the job for them.
Click to expand...

Seems odd that on a stalking forum we brand a hunter who has paid a hefty sum for a professional service which was not received "a stupid twit "
 
Must admit i'm really surprised by some of the comments on a shooting forum.

If reports are true the boy has paid pretty much full whack to go poaching, while he may have previous form he's certainly paid top dollar for it. I'm sure paying that sort of cash he would have had a choice of PH's/outfitters rather than going with the dodgy outfit he did. It does seem strange. If u thought they were dodgy would u really hand over that sort of money incase they done a runner?

He's probably done cecil a favour anyway he must be 1 of the few 13yr old lion's still holding a pride at that age, all he has to look forward to is some younger lion battering/injuring him and pushing him of his pride so he thens is on his own hunting/scavenging for himself and being bullied by almost every other animal/bird when he actually gets a kill. Basically a long lingering death by starvation, give me a hunters bullet (or even arrowhead) any day of the week.

Personally think it is a far more fitting way for the lion to be shot and end up pride of place on someones wall to be admired for years, his meat had feed local village and the locals have made a bit of money out of him as well as jobs guiding, tracking, skinning and taxidermy (sadly looks like none of that is going to happen/happened in this case)


I think the bow thing is severly altering views, but its just a tool if used at sensible ranges (very close) but as 1 of the americans said bow hunter tend to practise more and have more field craft and possibly respect for the animal, often fieldcraft breeds respect. Also the cross sectional area must have a big impact on the wound channel and damege/bleeding out, but just like a bullet still needs to be well placed wot ever u use.
I've met a few 'heroes' in this country that shoot deer at massive ranges and take head shots when there experience possibly says they shouldn't, and i'd say its becoming far more common possibly the internet/forumms making it worse or novices think it is the 'done' thing
 
Muir said:
Dead lion. So what? I really don't give a f---k about that lion or the affluent idiot that shot it. I'm tired of hearing about it every five minutes especially when christian children are beheaded or crucified in the middle east and no one seems to dampen a tissue over it.

Genocide it taking place as we wring our hands over a lion. How did we get to this place?~Muir
Click to expand...
That's a very real and sobering thought Muir! We seem to be burying our heads in the sand and will undoubtedly get our exposed asses bitten for sure! Some folk need a reality check to get the world back in perspective. We have surely lost our way?
MS
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

An American perspective.
5 6 7
Replies
125
Views
6K
Tim.243
Tim.243
Training top up.
Replies
5
Views
351
Donkey Basher
Donkey Basher
Belling,colloquially known as 'honking' subtitled why oomph is warranted.'
Replies
9
Views
640
John Gryphon
John Gryphon
Lion v Man…..
Replies
1
Views
497
Mr. Gain
Mr. Gain
Generous shooters.
Replies
6
Views
515
John Gryphon
John Gryphon
1967spud Reloading Supplies Ltd - UK Suppliers for Reloading Equipment supplies, We also stock Bullet Heads and Bullet Cases Guns Cabinets, Night vision and much much more...
Back
Top