Annealing cases

Zetter

Well-Known Member
Hi All

I am about to dip my toe in the water of annealing my .243 cases. So far I have bought a blow lamp. I dont do enough reloading to invest in a dedicated annealing machine so what are the top tips for getting it right.
Initial try with a crap case and my fingers didnt go too well really and I am looking to do things a bit more of a controlled way.
Using a drill / 650 degree temperlaque seems like a good compromise?
 
This was the simplest and repeatable system I came up with. I found it quicker, easier and cheaper to use soap than tempilaq. But I have a pot if you would like it at a very reasonable price.




If you read the description on you tube and look up the SD thread I started there is a lot of information and an interesting discussion. But there are many other threads on here and hundreds of other YouTube videos...some definitely questionable. Go with what makes sense to you...

Alan
 
i do it in a dark room, spin the brass in the flame till you just see the slightest of orange glow and get it out .if you let it glow red you will loose accuracy.top tip the smaller the flame the slower the change making it esier to get out of the flame in time.
 
Cheers for the info both

Nice video Alantoo. I would be definitely interested in the tempilaq if you are looking to move it on to have a play with


Neil
 
Neil where do you plan on putting the tempilaq ? the second it hits flame it reaches temperature and leaves a hard baked mess. it is only good to put lower down the case to make sure to much heat is not transferred .if it is transferred you are doing it all wrong with the flame far to low on the case.
 
One method I have seen is to use a sacrificial case and put it in the mouth of the case. Then when spinning on an electric drill you do a count of how long it takes for the Tempilaq to liquify and this give you a residence time in the flame to get the annealing you need
 
The video above to me shows over annealing as the flame changes colour as the constituent alloys in the brass burn off. Was that just ordinary soap or a heat indicator like tempilstick? If so what purpose does the soap fulfil and what is the end point for removal from the flame? I use a similar method but don’t count more than six for each case. I got to nine on some of the cases in the video.
These were from a batch last week which visibly look about right. Obviously there is no way of knowing if they have been annealed adequately without lab testing equipment but at least it seemed consistent
128113
 
This was the simplest and repeatable system I came up with. I found it quicker, easier and cheaper to use soap than tempilaq. But I have a pot if you would like it at a very reasonable price.

If you read the description on you tube and look up the SD thread I started there is a lot of information and an interesting discussion. But there are many other threads on here and hundreds of other YouTube videos...some definitely questionable. Go with what makes sense to you...

Alan

Anyone know what case holder that is? Looks to be quick release maybe...?
 
The video above to me shows over annealing as the flame changes colour as the constituent alloys in the brass burn off. Was that just ordinary soap or a heat indicator like tempilstick? If so what purpose does the soap fulfil and what is the end point for removal from the flame? I use a similar method but don’t count more than six for each case. I got to nine on some of the cases in the video.
These were from a batch last week which visibly look about right. Obviously there is no way of knowing if they have been annealed adequately without lab testing equipment but at least it seemed consistent
View attachment 128113
The colour in the video was the soap burning off. The soap turns black at 400 deg. C
The myth about burning the zinc out of the brass at even a full annealing temperature of 600 deg C is just that, an oft repeated internet myth. If you consider that silver soldering of brass takes place at an orange heat of around 800 and is held for much longer and that brass and bronze are frequently cast where they are taken to melting point. If burning zinc out of the alloy were true we would always end up with pure copper after any hot work. The few atoms on the surface oxide layer and other contamination of the surface is most likely the element that reacts with the flame.

The varying timings in the video were done deliberately to show the consistency of temperature achieved by the soap system irrespective of where they were held in the flame and how long it took.

It was demonstrated precisely to show how likely you were to achieve different hardness outcomes if you just used counting as your temperature gauge.

Have a look through the thread where I first suggested the system. There is an experiment comparing the soap and the Tempilaq. The advantage of the soap is that you have a progression of colour from beige to black when it achieves 400. Tempilaq has a much narrower band.


The advantage of the soap over a timed system is that you have a temperature tell tale on each case and it also eliminates efficiency creep.

There is a considerable difference in temperature in the different parts of a propane torch flame. If you count the 6 and have held it in a cooler part of the flame you will risk only taking it to the heat in the middle of the very variable hardness out come.

The video shows that even if holding it in different parts of the flame using soap you can still be sure to achieve the same temperature. That was the point.

The resulting hardness from a given temperature between 250 and 350 varies tremendously depending on the initial stress/hardness condition of the metal. You do need to achieve the 400 C to benefit from the levelling of the resulting hardness.

By using time to gauge a temperature especially by counting, and hand held in a flame you are introducing unnecessary variables.

I just thought it more logical to gauge temperature with a temperature gauge (!) and the soap system gives you that cheaply and effectively.

Alan
 
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I bought a raptor case annealer for £200 and it was well worth the money and followed this guys advice with good results



Prior to that I used a drill with a 12mm deep socket and a propane butane mix hobby torch. I found that it was easier to control the process of the cases were clean but not too shiny. At the time I didn’t have tempilaq so used to do it by eye in a dimly lit room. I had the torch in a stable position and slowly rotated the case shoulder neck junction about 5mm from the inner point of the flame and watched for the colour change (goes like petrol on water) to get just below the shoulder body junction then took it out of the flame never letting the case neck go orange/red.

I can highly recommend the raptor annealers for the money I don’t think you can beat them as by the time I bought a torch for it it was less than £250 inc shipping and 2 disks
 
Anyone know what case holder that is? Looks to be quick release maybe...?

Nothing clever.

It was a 1/2” square drive Allen key. The hexagon key fitted the three jaw drill chuck. The 1/2” socket holds the case central and I just tip them out into a plastic pot with a bit of water in.

I tried various sockets on a square drive adaptor but they wobbled a lot. The direct grip of the Allen key in the chuck kept it all more stable.

Alan
 
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Nothing clever.

It was a 1/2” square drive Allen key. The hexagon key fitted the three jaw drill chuck. The 1/2” socket holds the case central and I just tip them out into a plastic pot with a bit of water in.

I tried various sockets on a square drive adaptor but they wobbled a lot. The direct grip of the Allen key in the chuck kept it all more stable.

Alan
Keeping it simple, like it!
 
This was the simplest and repeatable system I came up with. I found it quicker, easier and cheaper to use soap than tempilaq. But I have a pot if you would like it at a very reasonable price.




If you read the description on you tube and look up the SD thread I started there is a lot of information and an interesting discussion. But there are many other threads on here and hundreds of other YouTube videos...some definitely questionable. Go with what makes sense to you...

Alan



Hi Alan

Seems like a silly question but what soap do you recommend :)


Ta Neil
 
Fairy laundry soap but they don’t make it any more!

Have. Look at the thread link I posted. Towards the end I did an experiment with tempilaq, fairy and a current amazon sourced one. Can’t remember the brand now.

But I think any bar soap would probably do!

The key thing is you are just looking for consistency and repeatability of temperature rather than specific. The advantage of the 400 degC is that all converge in hardness irrespective of starting point and you have a greater tolerance. If you tried hitting 325 consistently a couple of degrees above or below could make a difference.

Alan
 
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Fairy laundry soap but they don’t make it any more!

Have. Look at the thread link I posted. Towards the end I did an experiment with tempilaq, fairy and a current amazon sourced one. Can’t remember the brand now.

But I think any bar soap would probably do!

The key thing is you are just looking for consistency and repeatability of temperature rather than specific. The advantage of the 400 degC is that all converge in hardness irrespective of starting point and you have a greater tolerance. If you tried hitting 325 consistently a couple of degrees above or below could make a difference.

Alan

Excellent thread Alan and some good test results.

Just so I have this straight in my mind when you are heating the case with the soap on it are you watching for the colour change to brown/ black so you know you have hit the correct temperature?


Cheers Neil
 
Excellent thread Alan and some good test results.

Just so I have this straight in my mind when you are heating the case with the soap on it are you watching for the colour change to brown/ black so you know you have hit the correct temperature?


Cheers Neil

Yes. Short answer.

Longer answer of course you are looking at as many parts of the process as you can hold in your head at the same time... just like any work!

The colour change element indicates the temperature though. :)

Alan

Ps one the nuances I mentioned in the original thread in this context, was that if you see the soap changing colour at the tip of the neck you can play the shoulder more into the flame and vice versa. So that neck and shoulder (or whatever parts you favour) achieve the same temperature.
 
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The colour in the video was the soap burning off. The soap turns black at 400 deg. C
The myth about burning the zinc out of the brass at even a full annealing temperature of 600 deg C is just that, an oft repeated internet myth. If you consider that silver soldering of brass takes place at an orange heat of around 800 and is held for much longer and that brass and bronze are frequently cast where they are taken to melting point. If burning zinc out of the alloy were true we would always end up with pure copper after any hot work. The few atoms on the surface oxide layer and other contamination of the surface is most likely the element that reacts with the flame.

The varying timings in the video were done deliberately to show the consistency of temperature achieved by the soap system irrespective of where they were held in the flame and how long it took.

It was demonstrated precisely to show how likely you were to achieve different hardness outcomes if you just used counting as your temperature gauge.

Have a look through the thread where I first suggested the system. There is an experiment comparing the soap and the Tempilaq. The advantage of the soap is that you have a progression of colour from beige to black when it achieves 400. Tempilaq has a much narrower band.


The advantage of the soap over a timed system is that you have a temperature tell tale on each case and it also eliminates efficiency creep.

There is a considerable difference in temperature in the different parts of a propane torch flame. If you count the 6 and have held it in a cooler part of the flame you will risk only taking it to the heat in the middle of the very variable hardness out come.

The video shows that even if holding it in different parts of the flame using soap you can still be sure to achieve the same temperature. That was the point.

The resulting hardness from a given temperature between 250 and 350 varies tremendously depending on the initial stress/hardness condition of the metal. You do need to achieve the 400 C to benefit from the levelling of the resulting hardness.

By using time to gauge a temperature especially by counting, and hand held in a flame you are introducing unnecessary variables.

I just thought it more logical to gauge temperature with a temperature gauge (!) and the soap system gives you that cheaply and effectively.

Alan

Many thanks for the additional info, I stand corrected. Had missed your other annealing thread :)
 
@srvet

It was interesting to research. I have first hand experience of hot forging, cold working and silver soldering brass on quite a few projects over the last fifty odd years. So knowing that you didn’t burn the zinc out and change the composition of the alloy until much higher temperatures and time spans...I thought it worth finding out a bit more when I kept reading the same old internet guff about cartridge case annealing and stress relieving.

Alan

Ps Obviously the whole process is fairly simple if you are careful to repeat the timing and position in the flame. The degree of regularity the cases in your image shows is proof of that.

The soap system is really a bit belt and braces but as it just adds a couple of seconds to the process and you can be reasonably sure of the results for next to no outlay.

It is the dreaded “efficiency creep” when working though a repetitive hand and eye coordinated batch process that it counters most effectively.
 
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