Are deer stalkers key to nature recovery?

[big ears]

@big ears what would you define as ‘large scale release’?

You’re using fallow ground as the comparator, which may be the ‘gold standard’ but is it realistic? In most cases, removing the shoots won’t result in ground being left to fallow, it’ll be put to some other use. So, it may be the realistic comparator is some kind of farming or, now, a solar farm.

That’s not to say shoots and farms don’t co-exist, plenty do, with the shoot providing coppices, cover and predator control that may otherwise not be undertaken.

There may be things that can be improved but don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I agree but what needs to be realised is that putting large numbers of birds down (even 3-500) has a negative impact on the bottom of the food chain.
There is evidence that particularly pheasants take many beneficial insects and reptiles which imbalance the ecosystem in favour of pest species. This leads to higher chemical use. Taking out foxes does not benefit the lower ecosystem on which we all rely.
We are in real danger of killing the soil with poor management and reliance on chemicals.

Leaving a set aside which is populated by native grasses and flowers is always better than game cover crop for our native invertebrates. Trouble is the spill of pesticides and fertilisers onto this area during spraying (however careful the driver is) makes it less fruitful . These chemicals are needed as the farmers need to make a profit and the supermarkets (and us) won’t pay enough. I get this.

With present farming methods and demands placed on them by the poor financial rewards per acre, due to many things but the supermarkets are an issue, there is only a certain number of harvests in our soil left. This is not scaremongering but a sad reality.

Although this is not directly related to pheasant shoots what needs to be realised is that all the claims that shoots do for the environment is far out weighed by the damage to the ecosystem they cause. Environment and ecosystem are not the same thing. Our pollinators are under threat from many things but loss of habitat is the biggest. Shoots do not add anything to that in fact have an adverse effect,

 

[sikamalc]

I find that many larger shoots are closing, mostly due to the horrendous costs of operating such high numbers of birds. I have never been a large commercial shoot person, too expensive for me. I prefer a walked up day with a mixed bag and a few friends. But even that is a rare for me these days, I'm a deer stalker.

I guess it depends on what people call a large shoot. I have stalked on one of my larger leases for over 20 years. The owner runs a private shoot, mostly for himself, but does sell 2 or 3 days. Bags are in the 150 range, so not a huge shoot, compared to many. But he is very keen on conservation, and takes great pride in the ground and the wildlife on it. I will go as far as to say it is one of the best kept places I have stalked in my career. Planting hedges and trees is undertaken regularly, and a stewardship scheme is underway. I have seen no damage by releasing birds, or by shooting, no cartrdiges left about at pegs, the place is spotless.

The small bird life and under story of the woodland is intact. I think its down to how landowners treat their ground, and if huge numbers of pheasants are released I could see the potential for damage. But it also should be taken into account the size of the land. And if there are SSCI areas.

2000 acres and 15,000 birds is going to make an impact, I would guess.

Having stalked many years back on the Duke of Northumberlands estate, he owns 140,000 acres, and at the time released over 36,000 birds.

Large shoots with high numbers of birds but land not fit to hold them is going to cause issues environmentally in my opinion. But I am not against it as such, its just another nail in shooting if shooting people take sides. Bit like Fox hunting I suppose?

 

[big ears]

I find that many larger shoots are closing, mostly due to the horrendous costs of operating such high numbers of birds. I have never been a large commercial shoot person, too expensive for me. I prefer a walked up day with a mixed bag and a few friends. But even that is a rare for me these days, I'm a deer stalker.

I guess it depends on what people call a large shoot. I have stalked on one of my larger leases for over 20 years. The owner runs a private shoot, mostly for himself, but does sell 2 or 3 days. Bags are in the 150 range, so not a huge shoot, compared to many. But he is very keen on conservation, and takes great pride in the ground and the wildlife on it. I will go as far as to say it is one of the best kept places I have stalked in my career. Planting hedges and trees is undertaken regularly, and a stewardship scheme is underway. I have seen no damage by releasing birds, or by shooting, no cartrdiges left about at pegs, the place is spotless.

The small bird life and under story of the woodland is intact. I think its down to how landowners treat their ground, and if huge numbers of pheasants are released I could see the potential for damage. But it also should be taken into account the size of the land. And if there are SSCI areas.

2000 acres and 15,000 birds is going to make an impact, I would guess.

Having stalked many years back on the Duke of Northumberlands estate, he owns 140,000 acres, and at the time released over 36,000 birds.

Large shoots with high numbers of birds but land not fit to hold them is going to cause issues environmentally in my opinion. But I am not against it as such, its just another nail in shooting if shooting people take sides. Bit like Fox hunting I suppose?

Malcolm your point is well made and what I’m trying to get across is that what you see may not be the whole story. It looks well tended there are birds there. The hedges look good BUT at ground level what is the insect life like?
Nobody looks. Evidence shows that even a small pen has negative effects.
My point is driven shooters need to accept they are making a negative impact on the ecosystem not hide this fact.

 

[jall55]

Malcolm your point is well made and what I’m trying to get across is that what you see may not be the whole story. It looks well tended there are birds there. The hedges look good BUT at ground level what is the insect life like?
Nobody looks. Evidence shows that even a small pen has negative effects.
My point is driven shooters need to accept they are making a negative impact on the ecosystem not hide this fact.

Next time you are up in the midlands drop me a line and come and have a look what some shoots do

 

[willie_gunn]

Or have a read of the GWCT’s research and appreciate that, rather than being a case of Good vs Bad, it is in reality a complicated picture, with ecosystem benefits in some areas and costs in others:

https://www.gwctknowledge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/pheasants-2.pdf

 

[sikamalc]

Malcolm your point is well made and what I’m trying to get across is that what you see may not be the whole story. It looks well tended there are birds there. The hedges look good BUT at ground level what is the insect life like?
Nobody looks. Evidence shows that even a small pen has negative effects.
My point is driven shooters need to accept they are making a negative impact on the ecosystem not hide this fact.

On the other side of the coin, another lease I am leaving, since the son has taken over, has dropped their small shoot. Mostly due to cost, and he's not a real country person. In fact the whole place and the tenants are unhappy, and not sure what their future holds for them.

Some years back I discovered a colony of Silver Washed Fritillery butterflies at the top of a wood. Not an overly common butterfly these days. I informed the new owner of their being present a year or two back, to which he replied "for gods sake don't tell any one about that, they will want to protect them"

Now completely destroyed and the whole top of the wood gone.

Nothing to do with the shoot, which had no impact on the area, just greed, and money, which now seems to be the main focus. So I would not tar all big/medium/small shoots with the same brush. Many do a great deal for conservation, some do not, and never will.

 

[big ears]

Next time you are up in the midlands drop me a line and come and have a look what some shoots do

If you are testing the soil and surveying the invertebrate levels it would be interesting

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The following review may be of interest - on the Ecological Consequences of Gamebird Releasing and Management on Lowland Shoots in England. As @willie_gunn explained above, its a complicated picture, with ecosystem benefits in some areas and costs in others.

Ecological Consequences of Gamebird Releasing and Management on Lowland Shoots in England - NEER016

publications.naturalengland.org.uk

 

[Heym SR20]

Biggest problem with woodland restoration is squirrels.

Biggest challenge to nature restoration are humans, in particular developers.

Down in the part of Oxfordshire where I grew up. Huge housing estates all aling the River Thames floodplain around Wallingford, Benson and going towards Oxford huge developments all around the city.

Large areas of what were flood plains now bugger all use for nature.

Go back to Scotland. Edinburgh now extends all along the Forth estuary for 20 odd miles due east. 20 years ago it was grade one farmland.

And most of these housing estates have huge numbers of empty properties, no facilities and if anybody needs a pint of milk they have to get in a car.

Once we get the two legged vermin under control then there might be a bit of hope for the natural world.

 

[jall55]

If you are testing the soil and surveying the invertebrate levels it would be interesting

We and many others do as part of various HLS / SFI agreements
The invertebrates you can see and hear for yourself - not convinced - then the flocks of swifts / swallows and martins is evidence enough - still not convinced come view the bats at night through a thermal

 

[25 Sharps]

I think it’s you that’s talking tosh. Have you ever stepped foot on a large shoot or are you letting your jealousy talk? On average the decent shoots I have been on have had higher quality habitats and levels of wildlife than non shooting ground.

He’s not talking tosh.

He’s right, you cannot add a huge number of non native birds to an ecosystem without it impacting the native species negatively.

(And I have been on big shoots but also have an objective understanding of ecology and conservation.)

You’re a keeper, you are going to argue otherwise, but the facts are exactly that.

 

[jall55]

He’s not talking tosh.

He’s right, you cannot add a huge number of non native birds to an ecosystem without it impacting the native species negatively.

(And I have been on big shoots but also have an objective understanding of ecology and conservation.)

You’re a keeper, you are going to argue otherwise, but the facts are exactly that.

If you have been on many shoots though have you not seen the conservation work so many do ?

 

[RCS Deer Management]

He’s not talking tosh.

He’s right, you cannot add a huge number of non native birds to an ecosystem without it impacting the native species negatively.

(And I have been on big shoots but also have an objective understanding of ecology and conservation.)

You’re a keeper, you are going to argue otherwise, but the facts are exactly that.

Was a keeper. I didn’t dispute that adding large numbers of birds can be a negative, just that after weighing up all of the positives and negatives of a shoot that the positives far outweigh the negatives. I now manage deer full time and the future of game shooting has no impact on my future, however I can’t standby and just listen to nonsense

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Meanwhile BASC has been responding to various consultations as they arise and we are recommending the inclusion of deer and grey squirrel control as regards woodlands. In fact many of the draft plans being consulted on already had that covered. So we are pushing against an open door on this. Here is an update:

Unlocking nature recovery: The crucial role of shooting

Sustainable shooting is driving nature recovery in England, contributing to environmental goals, rural economies and public health.

basc.org.uk