Articles on the effect of eating lead shot game on human health

[Cottis]

Agree, but when have large through put type facilities where profits are everything do you think they remove all the contaminated parts.

An owner managed master butcher is one thing. A production line producing pies or dog food etc is another.

And this is basically the key. Anyone suppling high levels of meat commercially, it is in their interests to ensure it is absolutely free of any possible toxin. More so in this day and age of everyone moaning about anything and everything. That makes sense and if someone is supply shot animals in to this environment, then it makes sense for them to adhere to whatever criteria the commercial supplier stipulates.

There is a large difference between that and many of us shooting either for the table or in a smaller scale commercial operation, maybe like @Freeforester who could via skill and experience remove any part of the animal impacted by the bullet and the surrounding tissue.

I do not gourge on lead shot meat every day of my life but i have eaten a good amount of it over many years and know similar folk do the same. All are well and healthy, certainly more healthy than the general population who consume no lead shot meat but fill their cake holes with an unholy amount of crap.

I am comfortable doing that and it looks like that choice will be taken out of my hand. Would I work in a confined space where small lead particles were doing the rounds? Nope, not even for an hour. Common sense went out the window a long time ago in society.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The following article is worth a read - with perspective from US hunters - and emphasis on encouraging greater awareness of the exposure risks rather than legal restrictions and that hunters want to hear about the science from trusted sources.

https://www.ehn.org/lead-ammunition-in-meat-2645108170.html

 

[One on top of two]

Blimey as a kid I can remember storing about 10 pellets inside my left cheek when I was hunting with my air rifle .


Still here

 

[308tikka]

The authors - as said above - cannot replicate the findings. The scientific method- observe, hypothesise, experiment, record and then independently repeat has not (likely cannot) be done.

Notwithstanding the requirement for double blind studies with local populations which are quite possibly going to indicate similar level of lead in the general population in a given area due to industrial outputs, emissions and so on.

Finally, some people just dont know when to shut up. Do you want to shoot or not? Keep on with the BS masquerading as science and your sport will be taken from you ‘for your own good’.

 

[Heym SR20]

And this is basically the key. Anyone suppling high levels of meat commercially, it is in their interests to ensure it is absolutely free of any possible toxin. More so in this day and age of everyone moaning about anything and everything. That makes sense and if someone is supply shot animals in to this environment, then it makes sense for them to adhere to whatever criteria the commercial supplier stipulates.

There is a large difference between that and many of us shooting either for the table or in a smaller scale commercial operation, maybe like @Freeforester who could via skill and experience remove any part of the animal impacted by the bullet and the surrounding tissue.

I do not gourge on lead shot meat every day of my life but i have eaten a good amount of it over many years and know similar folk do the same. All are well and healthy, certainly more healthy than the general population who consume no lead shot meat but fill their cake holes with an unholy amount of crap.

I am comfortable doing that and it looks like that choice will be taken out of my hand. Would I work in a confined space where small lead particles were doing the rounds? Nope, not even for an hour. Common sense went out the window a long time ago in society.

Agree with much of what you say, but have read the articles looking at how far lead particles can travel - many at well over 45cm to the bullet placement, to be certain you remove all the lead you pretty much have yo discard most of the forequarters and a good chunk of the loins.

The beauty of a monolithic bullet is that they stay together - most recovered are at 99.9% of original weight. If they do loose a petal or two these either exit the carcass, or are bigger enough to see with naked eye.

My choice, but I am not going to feed, myself or my family and friends with lead shot meat. Especially now knowing the risks associated.

Nor do I think it is acceptable for deer that go into human food chain to contain known toxins. Yes you can have all the protocols etc in place, but human nature is what it is. And much of the food supply chain agrees with this sentiment and is changing accordingly.

Other than an increase in cost of bullets I really see no downsides to using monolithic bullets. They kill effectively and leave a much cleaner carcass. The additional cost is more than paid for by additional venison that can be taken from the carcass.

Nor do I think it is acceptable to leave remains of deer in the field contaminated with lead shot that can then be eaten by wildlife. And from a PR perspective this is a nightmare.

And rather than affecting our sport and having it taken away from us. There is now more than evidence that the risks to our sport from not changing far outweigh those of using non toxic bullets.


Human knowledge is so much more developed now than it was even 20 years ago. The consequences of lead ammunition are now well known and understood by science. I think they have actually been known about for a very long time, but nobody has raised the issue.

I see many similarities with Tobacco. When I grew up tobacco was everywhere, all sports had tobacco sponsors and most parents smoked in front of their kids and whilst pregnant. Cigarettes were part of army ration packs until not that long ago, and everybody smoked on trains, in offices, planes, pubs etc. Yet now any public space is now smoke free and the British Forces aim to be smoke free by the end of 2022. The consequences of smoking are now very well understood and behaviour has changed. Younger generation now cannot understand why any one would be so stupid as to inhale smoke.

 

[IBD]

I worry more about various imported foods and what has been sprayed on them than lead pellets in a gamebird or fragment of a bullet in a deer

 

[Heym SR20]

The authors - as said above - cannot replicate the findings. The scientific method- observe, hypothesise, experiment, record and then independently repeat has not (likely cannot) be done.

Notwithstanding the requirement for double blind studies with local populations which are quite possibly going to indicate similar level of lead in the general population in a given area due to industrial outputs, emissions and so on.

Finally, some people just dont know when to shut up. Do you want to shoot or not? Keep on with the BS masquerading as science and your sport will be taken from you ‘for your own good’.

Re replication of experiments on animals and humans, cost and ethical considerations probably preclude.

So in the study on pigs they demonstrated with a high degree of significance that lead particles in venison when ingested as part of food ration results in higher levels of lead in the blood.

Would replicating this study in another 8, 24 or 240 pigs result in any real difference in the study outcomes is the question that the ethics committee would ask before allowing such a further trial to proceed, and would the knowledge gained outweigh the fact you are feeding a known poison to pigs.

There have been multiple other observational studies on subsistence hunters, and in post mortem of dead birds - both wild fowl and raptors all showing higher levels of lead in the blood.

And there have been numerous studies on various diseases showing a correlation between the disease and exposure to or measurable levels of lead in the blood and bone material- where it is ultimately stored.

So rather than simply shouting BS studies why don’t you read up on some of the papers and follow the links to some of the other papers and make your own judgement.

 

[308tikka]

Re replication of experiments on animals and humans, cost and ethical considerations probably preclude.

Precisely. So it is supposition and modelling.

So in the study on pigs they demonstrated with a high degree of significance that lead particles in venison when ingested as part of food ration results in higher levels of lead in the blood.

Significance. Hardly scientific language. Not a high degree of certainty though.

Would replicating this study in another 8, 24 or 240 pigs result in any real difference in the study outcomes is the question that the ethics committee would ask before allowing such a further trial to proceed, and would the knowledge gained outweigh the fact you are feeding a known poison to pigs.

Yes. Its the whole basis of the scientific method. If anyone thinks that cosmetics or biological agents havent been tested on hundreds of animals, they are naive.

There have been multiple other observational studies on subsistence hunters, and in post mortem of dead birds - both wild fowl and raptors all showing higher levels of lead in the blood.

Hunters and birds- do these studies compare with non-hunters or other birds not (presumably) eating carrion in the same geographical area? No.

And there have been numerous studies on various diseases showing a correlation between the disease and exposure to or measurable levels of lead in the blood and bone material- where it is ultimately stored.

Correlation is not causation. This is basic.

So rather than simply shouting BS studies why don’t you read up on some of the papers and follow the links to some of the other papers and make your own judgement.

What is fed to pigs? As in, how is it controlled. Minced, including shot damge?

If I shoot a deer in the neck, but eat loins and haunches, I am mitigating against risk of ingesting. It is highly unlikely-though theoretically possible I will eat a microscopically small amount of lead.

Thats my choice. The evangelical wing of copper proponents want everyone else to follow their religion, because like most religious fanatics they are weak minded and it upsets them that others disagree or have much simpler methods to avoid risk than the blanket ban on lead they wish to see.

 

[Heym SR20]

Precisely. So it is supposition and modelling.


Significance. Hardly scientific language. Not a high degree of certainty though.


Yes. Its the whole basis of the scientific method. If anyone thinks that cosmetics or biological agents havent been tested on hundreds of animals, they are naive.

Hunters and birds- do these studies compare with non-hunters or other birds not (presumably) eating carrion in the same geographical area? No.

Correlation is not causation. This is basic.

What is fed to pigs? As in, how is it controlled. Minced, including shot damge?

If I shoot a deer in the neck, but eat loins and haunches, I am mitigating against risk of ingesting. It is highly unlikely-though theoretically possible I will eat a microscopically small amount of lead.

Thats my choice. The evangelical wing of copper proponents want everyone else to follow their religion, because like most religious fanatics they are weak minded and it upsets them that others disagree or have much simpler methods to avoid risk than the blanket ban on lead they wish to see.

Well for you at the moment there is not a ban on lead so you can carry on as usual.

 

[JTO]

Lead pipes in water supply are a problem in soft water, plumbosolvent, areas.
In hard water area, a 'limescale' forms on the inside of the pipes and this keeps the water from contacting the lead anyway.

 

[JTO]

My uncle was x-rayed in hospital when he was 70. The doctors asked him about an object that showed up behind one ear. He was able to tell them that it was an airgun pellet that had been there since my mother, his sister, had shot him when he was about 10.
He had always been deaf! Not sure if that was because of the airgun incident, the fact that he had been asleep on the ground when a 1000lb, that never exploded, landed about 15ft away, or because his parents were 1st cousins.

 

[JTO]

Many decades ago there was an article, or perhaps a radio program, the made mention of the fact that a lot of early settlers in America had accumulations of shotgun pellets in their stomachs from eating animals they had shot. Not sure how they were found or if it had killed any of them!

 

[Dunwaters]

I have a recollection that Sir Joseph Nickerson was peppered with shot badly enough that a visit to the hospital was indicated.
An x-ray revealed numerous pellets in his stomach and an operation was recommended, he pointed out that he ate a lot of game and the pellets might not all be as a result of the accident.
A new x-ray showed that quite a few pellets were indeed “en passage”.

 

[tikkathreebarrels]

Many decades ago there was an article, or perhaps a radio program, the made mention of the fact that a lot of early settlers in America had accumulations of shotgun pellets in their stomachs from eating animals they had shot. Not sure how they were found or if it had killed any of them!

I've got a modest amount of awareness of the pioneers who left England and walked across America seeking to find Zion: maybe they and their offspring were especially robust. Black powder firearms, lead bullets, man.......

 

[enfieldspares]

There is often a sentiment raised by those who are rather dubious about conversion to non-lead ammunition. The argument is “where are the studies that show eating lead shot game is damaging to human health?”

An article published in 2017 in American Journal of Medicine

Chronic Lead Intoxication From Eating Wild-Harvested Game

The purpose of this article is to determine if conversion from eating wild game harvested with lead-based ammunition to nonlead-based ammunition results in lower blood lead levels. Supersonic injection of toxin-leeching frangible projectiles into food is intuitively bad. As much as 95% of the...

www.amjmed.com

And it also cites a number of studies of indigenous populations that eat a lot of lead shot game meat.

I found this having also this good summary from University of Melbourne

Lead from ammunition is a threat to everyone's health

Ammunition is a major source of environmental lead pollution; alternatives could be used to protect Australian wildlife, says a University of Melbourne expert

pursuit.unimelb.edu.au

I have recently a PhD thesis on lead in man and it cites anecdotal observations from the First World War and workers in ammunition factories making lead bullets were getting seriously ill.

Isn't that the well documented "phossy jaw" rather than lead? In shell factories. Lead in bullets was swaged into the bullet jacket from drawn lead wire. I doubt in fact that knowing how .303 ammunition was made that the workers handled open end of the bullets very much at all.

 

[Dunwaters]

I’m convinced, lead in your diet is bad for you regardless of how it gets there.
That opinion is based on the fact that while there are numerous articles saying so, from a multiple of sources, there isn’t a single one credibly claiming that lead is good for you or even neutral, so on balance I’ll play it safe and keep my levels as close to zero as is practical.
You may argue individual cases and scenarios until the archangel Gabrielle blows his trumpet, but that’s not going to change the basic scientific fact that lead is toxic and we’re better off not ingesting it in any form.

 

[Heym SR20]

I’m convinced, lead in your diet is bad for you regardless of how it gets there.
That opinion is based on the fact that while there are numerous articles saying so, from a multiple of sources, there isn’t a single one credibly claiming that lead is good for you or even neutral, so on balance I’ll play it safe and keep my levels as close to zero as is practical.
You may argue individual cases and scenarios until the archangel Gabrielle blows his trumpet, but that’s not going to change the basic scientific fact that lead is toxic and we’re better off not ingesting it in any form.

Ah but many on SD believe that lead in bullets is totally different from lead used elsewhere, and that the human gut is totally different in function to all other species, so that ingesting lead in game has absolutely no effect on their health whatsoever - and that the likes of the WHO who say that lead is toxic are all just part of the global conspiracy.