Barrel too hot???

[Utectok]

So lots of people and many I respect go on about cooling the barrel between shots or short strings when zeroing. To my mind and experience it seems to be total b0ll0xs? I mean for a average sporting barrel groups don’t really alter after 20-30 shots shot in a leisurely way. I get machine gunning 50 rounds may have an effect but really for modest shooting leaning 30sec-1min between shots???
It is possible I’m wrong but what’s your experience???

 

[finnbear270]

I toasted a barrel in a Schiesskino once.

 

[Smellydog]

Your right considering most have heavy barrels or what we use to call varminting or target barrels.
I however like light barrels because I like to enjoy walking with a rifle.
Most of my light weight barrels would shoot three rounds then walk a tiny amount.

 

[Dave Lakes]

Once the barrel is ‘warm’, every shot thereafter immediately produces quite a distracting heat haze in the scope so I let it cool a bit for that reason alone.

That I might gain some more longevity of my barrel is a side benefit. I’ve never known whether it’s myth or not, but I can’t afford a new barrel anyway!

 

[Muir]

I can tell you with no small amount of certainty that if you take a mid-1970's Ruger Model 77 Standard rifle and fire as few as three shots through it, the groups will open up consideraably. Crappy barrels. Turned at high speed and then "straightened" before assembly. I have rebarreled quite a few rifles of this vintage for just this problem and it remains one of my ingrained prejudices against Model 77's.

That said, I have Tikkas and CZ's that don't care one bit about the rapidity of firing. I got my T3 308 too hot to comfortably handle the barrel and then shot sub MOA groups with it. My Steyr Scout 6.5 CM shoots the same, regardless of how many times I've fired it, or how fast. I haven't done any marathon shooting with it but that that skinny a barrel you'd think it would wander. ~Muir

 

[Smellydog]

Yep. Proper stress relieving is paramount. Forsake it at the risk of losing a good reputation if you happen to be a barrel maker.

 

[Utectok]

I can tell you with no small amount of certainty that if you take a mid-1970's Ruger Model 77 Standard rifle and fire as few as three shots through it, the groups will open up consideraably. Crappy barrels. Turned at high speed and then "straightened" before assembly. I have rebarreled quite a few rifles of this vintage for just this problem and it remains one of my ingrained prejudices against Model 77's.

That said, I have Tikkas and CZ's that don't care one bit about the rapidity of firing. I got my T3 308 too hot to comfortably handle the barrel and then shot sub MOA groups with it. My Steyr Scout 6.5 CM shoots the same, regardless of how many times I've fired it, or how fast. I haven't done any marathon shooting with it but that that skinny a barrel you'd think it would wander. ~Muir

That’s interesting. Perhaps modern well manufactured barrels are more robust in this respect and the barrel wandering myth comes from the way guns used to be made?

 

[MGD]

Have a look on YouTube there's a person putting a thousand rounds throw a 6.5 creedmore I think as fast as possible cooks bacon on barrel half way throw and if remember right gets to 5/600round before groups open (I bet he has the mother off all flinches)

 

[Smellydog]

That’s interesting. Perhaps modern well manufactured barrels are more robust in this respect and the barrel wandering myth comes from the way guns used to be made?

No, stress relieving is and has been a part of barrel making for hundreds of years.
Rolled bar has stress built in. Machining adds stress.
Hammer forging or baking before machining removes stress. That allows the barrel to heat up during shooting but stay stable.
It costs, many have cut costs, or rather tried too but at the cost of their reputation.
Why do you assume modern is better?
Stellite was made in the early 1900s and soon adopted for use in firearm barrels. I doubt you will find it any barrel you buy today for civilian use.
Winchester added nickel to there barrel steel over 100years ago.
Some modern barrels have no alloys to make them more resilient or stable.

 

[Utectok]

No, stress relieving is and has been a part of barrel making for hundreds of years.
Rolled bar has stress built in. Machining adds stress.
Hammer forging or baking before machining removes stress. That allows the barrel to heat up during shooting but stay stable.
It costs, many have cut costs, or rather tried too but at the cost of their reputation.
Why do you assume modern is better?
Stellite was made in the early 1900s and soon adopted for use in firearm barrels. I doubt you will find it any barrel you buy today for civilian use.
Winchester added nickel to there barrel steel over 100years ago.
Some modern barrels have no alloys to make them more resilient or stable.

Ok thanks for clearing that up that’s interesting

 

[Smellydog]

Ok thanks for clearing that up that’s interesting

When you cut a bar of stock steel, rolled bar you will see the stress points in the bar. Often an elliptical shape and it actually has a 3d effect to the cut surface.

 

[Utectok]

When you cut a bar of stock steel, rolled bar you will see the stress points in the bar. Often an elliptical shape and it actually has a 3d effect to the cut surface.

Wow I had no idea

 

[Utectok]

So to paraphrase crappy barrels wander when hot good quality ones not so much?

 

[gixer1]

Someone (from a Blaser/Sauer dealer) once told me that Blaser and Sauer barrels were tested and shown to cope extremely well with heat due to shot strings.

Not sure if that’s true or not.

 

[enfieldspares]

I've never had a problem with any Parker-Hale rifle with the barrel stringing a group of five rounds shot in under three minutes. Nor with any of the BRNO ZKK rifles I had nor my Czechoslovakian .270 WCF on a Mauser 98 action. I'm either lucky...which I doubt...or maybe some other makers just don't get the fundamentals right. P-Hale rifles (some) may have sloppy chambers but they don't string shots.

 

[Smellydog]

I've never had a problem with any Parker-Hale rifle with the barrel stringing a group of five rounds shot in under three minutes. Nor with any of the BRNO ZKK rifles I had nor my Czechoslovakian .270 WCF on a Mauser 98 action. I'm either lucky...which I doubt...or maybe some other makers just don't get the fundamentals right. P-Hale rifles (some) may have sloppy chambers but they don't string shots.

Most use hammer forged barrels now. The hammers are radial and hammer the drilled stock onto a rifled negative mandrill.
The hammering not only rifles the blank but also relieves any inherent stress.

Iirc border barrels used to use stock bar. Drill it. Bake the stress out of it. Re drill and cut the rifling then finish the exterior profile.

My PH rifle in 308 with light profile barrel didn't walk shot either. A very stable barrel.
There are plenty videos on barrel making . See if you or anyone picks up on stress relieving. It is a very important part of the process.

 

[Smellydog]

 

[Heym SR20]

The challenge comes with thin lightweight barrels, especially when they are soldered to another barrel like in a combination gun or double.

Because they are attached down one side they warp towards the side to which they are attached.

A double rifle is regulated so you shoot one barrel followed by the other and the warping counter balances.

In a combination gun, first shot from rifle barrel is on target, 2nd goes an inch high, 3rd about 4 inches high. When zeroing you take your time and make sure It is properly cool between shots.

Does this matter. Well in the field a double game rifle is shooting big game at pretty close range. Two quick shots are pretty much all you get, and if you do reload, shots 3 and 4 are going to be up close and MOA is an irrelevance.

I use a 7x65r as my main stalking rifle. I make sure that the first shot counts, and I have shot plenty of deer with it out to 200m. I have reloaded and taken a 2nd deer on occasion and an inch high doesn’t matter.

With a hunting rifle, 99% of shots are from a cold barrel, and I always work on a cold barrel zero, and when working up loads I take my time to let barrels cool.

 

[Border]

The challenge comes with thin lightweight barrels, especially when they are soldered to another barrel like in a combination gun or double.

Because they are attached down one side they warp towards the side to which they are attached.

A double rifle is regulated so you shoot one barrel followed by the other and the warping counter balances.

In a combination gun, first shot from rifle barrel is on target, 2nd goes an inch high, 3rd about 4 inches high. When zeroing you take your time and make sure It is properly cool between shots.

Does this matter. Well in the field a double game rifle is shooting big game at pretty close range. Two quick shots are pretty much all you get, and if you do reload, shots 3 and 4 are going to be up close and MOA is an irrelevance.

I use a 7x65r as my main stalking rifle. I make sure that the first shot counts, and I have shot plenty of deer with it out to 200m. I have reloaded and taken a 2nd deer on occasion and an inch high doesn’t matter.

With a hunting rifle, 99% of shots are from a cold barrel, and I always work on a cold barrel zero, and when working up loads I take my time to let barrels cool.

This is the reason that for the yearly Norwegian big game test that only 3 shots are required in the target zone for combination guns and drillings. For all other rifles 5 shots.

 

[Smellydog]

The challenge comes with thin lightweight barrels, especially when they are soldered to another barrel like in a combination gun or double.

Because they are attached down one side they warp towards the side to which they are attached.

A double rifle is regulated so you shoot one barrel followed by the other and the warping counter balances.

In a combination gun, first shot from rifle barrel is on target, 2nd goes an inch high, 3rd about 4 inches high. When zeroing you take your time and make sure It is properly cool between shots.

Does this matter. Well in the field a double game rifle is shooting big game at pretty close range. Two quick shots are pretty much all you get, and if you do reload, shots 3 and 4 are going to be up close and MOA is an irrelevance.

I use a 7x65r as my main stalking rifle. I make sure that the first shot counts, and I have shot plenty of deer with it out to 200m. I have reloaded and taken a 2nd deer on occasion and an inch high doesn’t matter.

With a hunting rifle, 99% of shots are from a cold barrel, and I always work on a cold barrel zero, and when working up loads I take my time to let barrels cool.

I have heard this before but never ever witnessed it myself.
I have only limited experience with double rifles and combination guns but never saw them walk as you describe.
I fail to understand the concept.
The heat that wants to warp one barrel that is joined to another barrel would also have to bend the other barrel.
The structure is a rigid structure.
Also heat is readily absorbed along the joints. A double rifle has potential for good cooling or even heat distribution within a limited number of shots.

Do you have any links to testing this please?