BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[Terry2016]

No there isn't if there was folk would not use MRI. Please do not continue to respond about things you obviously know nothing about.

If steel didn't come in contact with barrel then there would not be an issue with those not manufactured for steel .

A lot bullets are copper coated, yes there is additional wear compared to soft point lead. But it is quite low.
Copper alloys seem to be wat forward, but wait for the cost to increase.

yes there is, i have had many CAT or cameras to look at the gut. what do you think they did before MRI scans ??? good lord, you clearly have no idea.

its the pressure ... do you know how guns work ? the only guns not suitable for standard steel are thin walled or twist barrel guns like damascus and there is one company HP testing them against CIP advice,.and they are also fine ...

 

[Terry2016]

I am leaving this pointless discussion.

bye.

 

[Liveonce]

It is true. if your chokes are correct and the wad performs as it should, there is no issue, yes there ei more pressure in a steel shot cartridge for HP steel, however standard performance remains within teh tolerances of lead shot. for clarity they do not do anything to a gun to hP steel proof it just put more pressure and put a proof mark.

again not true, some wildfowl's shoots hundreds if not thousands of rounds of HP steel, tungsten can only be shot through a plastic wad and increases the risk to a gun due to the density and there is a higher risk of damage,

all mechanics ware... thats life, steel shot with the right wad at "standard performance" the ware will be negligible.

12ga lead shot magnum cartridges have been are available at 1050 bar for ages in chamber lengths 73mm (3inch) and longer which is what High Performance steel (Superior Steel) is also 1050bar.
3inch and longer chamber length guns are proofed at 1,320 bar be that for lead or now HP steel.

So no there is not more pressure in a steel HP cartridge compared to a 3inch+ (73mm) magnum lead shot cartridges and HP steel will only be in cartridges for 73mm or greater chambers, because guns with chamber lengths 70mm (2.3/4inch) or less are proofed only to 930bar and hence are not suitable for HP steel.

There is no guarantee that all shot remains within the shot cup when it jumps from within the cartridge through the chamber and into the forcing cone. Which is why Hull and GMK recommend matching cartridge length to chamber length.

The risk is also to the chokes as unlike lead which is malleable and hence their is little or no increase in pressure as the shot goes through the constriction, but however with steel this is not the case their is a significant increase in pressure as the shot passes through the choke.

I take your word that some wildfowlers shoot thousands of HP steel cartridges a season, as most I know do not and I know a few with Kent Wild fowlers on my door step being probably the largest wild fowling club in the U.K.

may be of interest to you.

 

[Liveonce]

not very true is it ?

its called sponsorship... simple. nothing more nothing less

indeed but generally speaking when one is sponsored by a firm you do not go promoting other manufactures products do you? Does Sir George Digweed sponsored by Gamebore promote Eley or Hull or any other make of cartridges?
Their is a relationship between both parties, a mutually beneficial trust, partnership call it what you want but they work together.

 

[StephenToast]

So why is lead shotgun shot considered to be so toxic that it's a threat to civilisation as we know it but the lead in airgun and rimfire ammunition not so? It just doesn't make sense!

That's why there should be a total ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition with no derogations.

It's either toxic or it isn't.

 

[Liveonce]

So why is lead shotgun shot considered to be so toxic that it's a threat to civilisation as we know it but the lead in airgun and rimfire ammunition not so? It just doesn't make sense!

Some would say because of quantity, many more tonne of lead shot used than lead in airguns and rimfire ammunition.

Some would say because large commercial game shoots are not acceptable if you cannot get the game into the food chain and the market is not happy with it containing toxic lead.

Some would say it’s all about risk management.

 

[RF76]

An interesting insight into MRI's and the concerns about various materials.

1) Source - MR safety bullets

"Regardless of their metallic composition, bullets, shot, and bits of shrapnel do not produce significant RF-heating due to their overall small dimensions. Projectiles composed of only non-ferromagnetic materials (e.g., lead, copper, brass, or zinc) neither undergo heating nor significant translational or or rotational forces. They should thus be considered OK to scan under any conditions. The primary safety concern is for projectiles containing ferromagnetic steel which can move significantly when placed in a strong external magnetic field".

MR safety bullets

MR safety bullets, shrapnel, FBs

mriquestions.com

There are references which can be found at the bottom of the article.

2) Source - UCSF - University of California and San Francisco Department of Radiology and Biomedical Imaging

Potential Hazards and Risks | Radiology

radiology.ucsf.edu

Again reference to Ferromagnetic material such as Steel shot (albeit used in sand bags) as being a safety concern around MRI's.

3) Source - mrisafety.com

"In an effort to reduce lead poisoning in “puddling” type ducks, the federal government requires many of the eastern United States to use steel shotgun pellets instead of lead. The presence of steel shotgun pellets presents a potential hazard to patients undergoing MR procedures and causes substantial imaging artifacts at the immediate position of these metallic objects. In one case, a small metallic BB located in a subcutaneous site caused painful symptoms in a patient exposed to an MR system, although no serious injury occurred."

Safety Topic/Article:

4) Source - Stanford University

MRI Near Metal

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be...

med.stanford.edu

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be inhomogeneous, causing severe image degradation.

The first two of these problems are a DANGER to the patient, and are cause to not do an MRI. The third is not dangerous, but can result in severely distorted images using conventional MRI.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are other links which can be found via various google searches which outline the concern of Ferromagnetic material in and around MRI.

I have not yet found any studies undertaken by the Society of Radiographers (UK) concerning Steel shot and MRI's, which may support the advice received by BASC that indicates a negligent risk.

 

[Apthorpe]

Some would say because of quantity, many more tonne of lead shot used than lead in airguns and rimfire ammunition.

Some would say because large commercial game shoots are not acceptable if you cannot get the game into the food chain and the market is not happy with it containing toxic lead.

Some would say it’s all about risk management.

Some would, and yet nobody can properly define the risks and consequences of lead ammunition use, so that is obviously not the reason.

 

[Apthorpe]

An interesting insight into MRI's and the concerns about various materials.

1) Source - MR safety bullets

"Regardless of their metallic composition, bullets, shot, and bits of shrapnel do not produce significant RF-heating due to their overall small dimensions. Projectiles composed of only non-ferromagnetic materials (e.g., lead, copper, brass, or zinc) neither undergo heating nor significant translational or or rotational forces. They should thus be considered OK to scan under any conditions. The primary safety concern is for projectiles containing ferromagnetic steel which can move significantly when placed in a strong external magnetic field".

MR safety bullets

MR safety bullets, shrapnel, FBs

mriquestions.com

There are references which can be found at the bottom of the article.

2) Source - UCSF - University of California and San Francisco Department of Radiology and Biomedical Imaging

Potential Hazards and Risks | Radiology

radiology.ucsf.edu

Again reference to Ferromagnetic material such as Steel shot (albeit used in sand bags) as being a safety concern around MRI's.

3) Source - mrisafety.com

"In an effort to reduce lead poisoning in “puddling” type ducks, the federal government requires many of the eastern United States to use steel shotgun pellets instead of lead. The presence of steel shotgun pellets presents a potential hazard to patients undergoing MR procedures and causes substantial imaging artifacts at the immediate position of these metallic objects. In one case, a small metallic BB located in a subcutaneous site caused painful symptoms in a patient exposed to an MR system, although no serious injury occurred."

Safety Topic/Article:

4) Source - Stanford University

MRI Near Metal

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be...

med.stanford.edu

The presence of metal can be a serious problem in MRI, because (1) Magnetic metals can experience a force in the scanner, (2) Long wires (such as in pacemakers) can result in induced currents and heating from the RF magnetic field and (3) Metals cause the static (B0) magnetic field to be inhomogeneous, causing severe image degradation.

The first two of these problems are a DANGER to the patient, and are cause to not do an MRI. The third is not dangerous, but can result in severely distorted images using conventional MRI.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are other links which can be found via various google searches which outline the concern of Ferromagnetic material in and around MRI.

I have not yet found any studies undertaken by the Society of Radiographers (UK) concerning Steel shot and MRI's, which may support the advice received by BASC that indicates a negligent risk.

Please. Enough with this about steel shot and MRIs. Everyone got the point some time ago. While I think a lead shot bam is stupid, the effect with MRIs does not move the dial either way.

 

[Smellydog]

birds eat lead shot laying on the ground

Do they, I've not seen it.
I've not seen an increase in wildfowl since the 90's ban, I was expecting to see millions by now.
I think I see more dead birds from vehicle collisions and cats than ingesting lead shot.

Haven't they just allowed use of nicitinoids again in the UK?
What are the effects to micro biology when slurry is sprayed on land? What happens when it gets in the water courses?

At Snailbeach in Shropshire there are disused lead mines with contaminated silt beds from pumping out the mines when they worked.
The lead content in them beds is off the scale.
Guess what....they are teeming with life.
I'd love to get these dam experts by the neck and drag them there to ask them " explain that big shot and no, there is no effing grant in it for you"!

The list goes on and on. It's a grand hypocracy
.
Go to a hospital, you will find lead. Look in your car, you will find lead.
Go to a power station, lead
Cadmium, everywhere.
Mercury nearly in every mouth of Britain.
Radio active particles sprinkled everywhere.
Palladium and rhodium emitted from every vehicle.
But you shooting lead, you bastards!!
Pathetic.
The narrative here is the well to do just want to shoot hundreds of birds a day and by arse licking keep the status quo.
Us minions should just consider ourselves lucky and shut up and do as you are told!
You guess the two closing words.....!

 

[timbrayford]

12ga lead shot magnum cartridges have been are available at 1050 bar for ages in chamber lengths 73mm (3inch) and longer which is what High Performance steel (Superior Steel) is also 1050bar.
3inch and longer chamber length guns are proofed at 1,320 bar be that for lead or now HP steel.

So no there is not more pressure in a steel HP cartridge compared to a 3inch+ (73mm) magnum lead shot cartridges and HP steel will only be in cartridges for 73mm or greater chambers, because guns with chamber lengths 70mm (2.3/4inch) or less are proofed only to 930bar and hence are not suitable for HP steel.

There is no guarantee that all shot remains within the shot cup when it jumps from within the cartridge through the chamber and into the forcing cone. Which is why Hull and GMK recommend matching cartridge length to chamber length.

The risk is also to the chokes as unlike lead which is malleable and hence their is little or no increase in pressure as the shot goes through the constriction, but however with steel this is not the case their is a significant increase in pressure as the shot passes through the choke.

I take your word that some wildfowlers shoot thousands of HP steel cartridges a season, as most I know do not and I know a few with Kent Wild fowlers on my door step being probably the largest wild fowling club in the U.K.

may be of interest to you.

3" magnum for driven partridge shooting, crikey!

 

[potshotpat]

Try not eating, and see how long you last.

 

[Bowland blades]

There are many ways of inspecting the gut other than MRI , there is also CAT and internal cameras up and down...

You will not need to replace your barrels with steel shot as "the shot" does not come into contact with the barrel.

In rifles copper will ware a barrel faster than lead of course, however, there are many variables to consider, its not just about material its about propellant and the speed of the round going down the barrel...

For shotguns, steel is the future (next cheapest option to lead)

For rifles, we will have to wait and see BUT I expect copper will be the answer and the extra cost will be absorbed by the shooter.

Copper wont damage rifles , think about it as its only the drive bands in contact and we shoot copper jacketed lead through our deer rifles also .
shotgun cartridges have a much thinner / less tough shotcup and Steel shot will cut through the wad unless you use steel shot specific loads with thicker / tougher shotcups . Steel also generates higher speeds in the barrel and higher pressures .
Bismuth shot is better for light game guns 410 and 28 and 2.5" 12 bore chambers
Personally i have taken the risk with none steel proof more modern 10 bores with 3 1/2" chambers and 12 more magnums . I also make most of my own and break CIP speed limits but abide to the pressure . In America ( where they have used steel for longer and had lead restrictions longer ) They produce the type of loads i make but our dealers cannot bring the real fast stuff in , unless it conforms to CIP limits

 

[timbrayford]

Copper wont damage rifles , think about it as its only the drive bands in contact and we shoot copper jacketed lead through our deer rifles also .
shotgun cartridges have a much thinner / less tough shotcup and Steel shot will cut through the wad unless you use steel shot specific loads with thicker / tougher shotcups . Steel also generates higher speeds in the barrel and higher pressures .
Bismuth shot is better for light game guns 410 and 28 and 2.5" 12 bore chambers
Personally i have taken the risk with none steel proof more modern 10 bores with 3 1/2" chambers and 12 more magnums . I also make most of my own and break CIP speed limits but abide to the pressure . In America ( where they have used steel for longer and had lead restrictions longer ) They produce the type of loads i make but our dealers cannot bring the real fast stuff in , unless it conforms to CIP limits

With all due respect US wildfowling with 10 bores & 3.5" 12 bores bears no relationship at all to UK driven game shooting with a lightweight game gun firing a 28 gram or lighter conventional lead load. One thing that has become apparent both on social media and from friends who shoot steel is that it has a pretty fierce recoil compared to lead. Somehow lugging some monster size gun around combined with the afore mentioned recoil would make a driven day far less enjoyable.
Despite the cost Bismuth would appear to be the best alternative lead, and ballistic tests from the US indicate that it is slightly ballistically superior to lead any way. However Bismuth is also toxic to humans at high enough levels and research has been done to try to quantify safe levels for birds so once the antis have got their way over lead it wouldn't be surprising if they start on whatever replaces it. Oh and before anyone asks there is such an ailment as an iron overdose!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8434042_Determining_the_background_levels_of_bismuth_in_tissues_of_wild_game_birds_A_first_step_in_addressing_the_environmental_consequences_of_using_bismuth_shotshells

 

[Liveonce]

And just like Steel Shot the worlds main producer by far of Bismuth is ….. China.

However a very much smaller amount is produced as a byproduct of other mining principle …….. lead.

“The average bismuth content of Earth's crust is estimated at 0.1 parts per million (ppm), and it rarely occurs in sufficient concentrations to permit commercial recovery as a primary product.”

Bismuth is rare earth metal, senseless using it as a replacement for lead shot.

 

[Bowland blades]

With all due respect US wildfowling with 10 bores & 3.5" 12 bores bears no relationship at all to UK driven game shooting with a lightweight game gun firing a 28 gram or lighter conventional lead load. One thing that has become apparent both on social media and from friends who shoot steel is that it has a pretty fierce recoil compared to lead. Somehow lugging some monster size gun around combined with the afore mentioned recoil would make a driven day far less enjoyable.
Despite the cost Bismuth would appear to be the best alternative lead, and ballistic tests from the US indicate that it is slightly ballistically superior to lead any way. However Bismuth is also toxic to humans at high enough levels and research has been done to try to quantify safe levels for birds so once the antis have got their way over lead it wouldn't be surprising if they start on whatever replaces it. Oh and before anyone asks there is such an ailment as an iron overdose!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8434042_Determining_the_background_levels_of_bismuth_in_tissues_of_wild_game_birds_A_first_step_in_addressing_the_environmental_consequences_of_using_bismuth_shotshells

You missed over my statements on std magnums there , lighter loads up to 4 steel ( which is ample for all but pheasant driven off a high face ) is fine 1/2 choke ( which patterns more like 3/4 choke , due the the wads used for loading steel not opening as fast). Everything we will ever shoot out of a gun is to a degree toxic .
Lets make the best of it eh ? Personally i have been shooting almost exclusively steel through my shotguns about 5 years now perhaps ? ! Its far more effective if you do this , there is very little in the way of twofors or aiming for a leader and getting a follower etc . This last point i feel is why so many struggle with steel in the early days. Only shotgun i put lead through is the old forten. That will end soon and i have a tub of bismuth shot waiting for that day !
Steel HP loads with number 1 or BB is totally awesome for foxing - it doesn't de- form on the way through thicker winter coats and patterns tighter with hardly ever any fliers .

 

[timbrayford]

You missed over my statements on std magnums there , lighter loads up to 4 steel ( which is ample for all but pheasant driven off a high face ) is fine 1/2 choke ( which patterns more like 3/4 choke , due the the wads used for loading steel not opening as fast). Everything we will ever shoot out of a gun is to a degree toxic .
Lets make the best of it eh ? Personally i have been shooting almost exclusively steel through my shotguns about 5 years now perhaps ? ! Its far more effective if you do this , there is very little in the way of twofors or aiming for a leader and getting a follower etc . This last point i feel is why so many struggle with steel in the early days. Only shotgun i put lead through is the old forten. That will end soon and i have a tub of bismuth shot waiting for that day !
Steel HP loads with number 1 or BB is totally awesome for foxing - it doesn't de- form on the way through thicker winter coats and patterns tighter with hardly ever any fliers .

I shoot game with a sbs 20 bore using shot loads of 28g or less. I'm afraid that nothing will persuade me to change just to appease Packham, Avery, Swift and their chums. If and when lead shot becomes unavailable bismuth is the alternative, steel shot in my opinion has no place away from the marsh and foreshore in anything apart from those horrid industrial magnums that the Americans apparently adore

 

[Bowland blades]

I shoot game with a sbs 20 bore using shot loads of 28g or less. I'm afraid that nothing will persuade me to change just to appease Packham, Avery, Swift and their chums. If and when lead shot becomes unavailable bismuth is the alternative, steel shot in my opinion has no place away from the marsh and foreshore in anything apart from those horrid industrial magnums that the Americans apparently adore

My daughter has dropped foreshore geese with her 20 bore shooting steel . I do not see your point from a practical stand point regards the 20 bore . BTW tungsten handloads in the 20 kill ever bit as well and geese as high if not a tad further than 10 bores with lead .
"IF" CIP dropped the whole velocity thing and just stuck with pressure none home loaders would have easy access to faster and better steel loads .
I do not think we have much choice with the 410 but small shot bismuth keeping ranges pretty much as they have been with lead .
One thing is for sure , the alternative is not going shooting ! Folks say " cost is too high " Yet very, very few do the bulk of a seasons shooting spending more on ammo than fuel when they go shooting . I note very few turn up in a little economic car , so costs are obviously not as important as is made out regards ammo .

 

[Liveonce]

One thing is for sure , the alternative is not going shooting ! Folks say " cost is too high " Yet very, very few do the bulk of a seasons shooting spending more on ammo than fuel when they go shooting . I note very few turn up in a little economic car , so costs are obviously not as important as is made out regards ammo .

Whilst I agree with that statement for a lot of game shooters its not all, especially if a DIY small shoot or for those who do a lot of crop protection and or clay shooting.
I may be wrong but you come across as someone who does relatively little shotgun shooting so a hundred or so pounds extra a year is not an issue, however for some it may add up to considerably more than that.

 

[Whitefront]

I have not used lead for any of my shooting - game, rough, wildfowling, pigeons and stalking - for nearly five years now. I don't miss it. I use copper (with added zinc) for my deer rifle, and steel or Bioammo Blue for my shotguns. For me, these alternatives work very well. I cannot tell the difference in the field. And the additional cost is a tiny fraction of the wider costs associated with shooting - indeed, with everyday life.

I feel sorry for those who have been persuaded by the few that the future of shooting depends on using lead ammunition. It certainly doesn't - which is just as well.