BASC statement on Home Office proposals

Wrote to my mp and my shooting org so currently a lot more than basc who are paid to lobby for us ... and what about you ?

i suppose the real difference is I'm not paid millions to try and safeguard our sport whereas your beloved basc is and is making zero effort

I'm not so sure that your criticism of BASC is entirely fair but you make a very valid point. I've made constructive comments to both BASC & HO, haven't bothered with the local MP as in my opinion he is a total waste of the natural resources of the planet, others living on the IW (including IW Conservative Party) will know precisely what I mean!
Seely.webp
 
Last edited:
I'm not so sure that your criticism of BASC is entirely fair but you make a very valid point. I've made constructive comments to both BASC & HO, haven't bothered with the local MP as in my opinion he is a total waste of the natural resources of the planet, others living on the IW (including IW Conservative Party) will know precisely what I mean!
View attachment 99239
Fair enough , although I strongly believe history will show us that basc and your mp belong firmly in the same bracket .....
 
BASC latest policy update - nothing. Everyone else - nothing.

This medical situation should have people who lead our sport briefing a QC and yet they are doing the same old, same old.
As far as I am concerned we should all look for shoot insurance elsewhere and judge our shooting organisations on other performance. which, apart from the NGO and NE amounts to almost nothing and certainly nothing which will save and protect shooting into the future. I only ask that each person who shoots and subscribes to a shooting organisation just makes a value assessment of their subs as they might do an essential one-off purchase - it doesnt stack up - we need new representation.
 
Kes, I have a couple tins of these left if you need em', as I gave up a couple years ago, .. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...I2fKeciEp5QmDmtjGxaVyCbUp7vqpnWvhJPbc1alyUDSA

Finn, thank you. I' afraid I will need them - I hate the hype with no substance, I am appalled by lack of action, I could go on. When younger I was a member of WAGBI - it had a strong following and was entirely laudable in what it did and how it did it. Since it became no more all that has replaced it is unworthy and I feel I need to make them all work for their fees.
I would join a certain Org, if I could be elected to their governing body and change a few things. I reckon its a closed shop - so I am a lonely voice who can only point out 'mistakes'.
 
Finn, thank you. I' afraid I will need them - I hate the hype with no substance, I am appalled by lack of action, I could go on. When younger I was a member of WAGBI - it had a strong following and was entirely laudable in what it did and how it did it. Since it became no more all that has replaced it is unworthy and I feel I need to make them all work for their fees.
I would join a certain Org, if I could be elected to their governing body and change a few things. I reckon its a closed shop - so I am a lonely voice who can only point out 'mistakes'.


Kes,with the greatest of respect, but a serious question, do you believe any of the current shooting/field sports ect,orgs really make any difference or indeed could they under totally new faces in the chair really make a difference, It seems with the past restrictive legislation's ,handguns,semi auto centerfire, were all foisted upon us despite our objections and common sense pleading. forgive me but you and many others have pointed this out often enough, everyone from us upwards just seem to go through the motions, the shooting org representatives just repeat it to committees who seem to have no idea what is being explained to them, and on it goes, right to the top where we find the police pulling all the strings, and ignorant politicians have to be seen to be doing "something" about the problem believing their every word whether fact of false. seems like any incident relating to the fact that the police losing control of the streets is simply used as another excuse to persecute the law abiding.

guns and their legal owners have been demonised by the media, we're an easy target, mention any black drug gangs, tommy robinson, illegal imigrants and connected rises in crime, and get branded racist, xenophobic, ethnocentric, ect,ect,
nobody cares if you demonise law abiding gun and knife owners.

I feel like saying much more but feel probably it would end badly.
 
Last edited:
I suppose its a matter of frustration. I KNOW the orgs could do better, they so often misjudge the mood of their membership. I also think a positive move to a single organisation would be helpful, always provided that organisation delivered. What is not happening now is a robust challenge to the police. I have had a few dealings with the police some of who's senior people are brilliant - some are jobs worths, the most senior EXPECT knighthoods. The police respond to intelligent criticism and intelligent support but with consequences obvious if they choose not to. I do not know how the orgs are playing the politicians but I feel it isnt enough or the correct tune. All MP's from rural constituencies - there are plenty - should be shamed into supporting shooting sports simply because of the economic impact and the democratic imperative.
Maybe I'm ******* in the wind but I will continue to do what I can to be a conscience for the worst and a supporter for the best. Unless in a position of 'power' there isnt much one person can do. However, If I did get to such a position, you could bet I wouldnt be in the pub on friday. That is unless someone important was leaving and buying !
 
Do you believe any of the current shooting/field sports ect,orgs really make any difference or indeed could they under totally new faces in the chair really make a difference...

Well I doubt if they could have done any worse. In fact my cat could probably have done better even though he's been dead these past twenty-seven years. The point is that the British NRA can't effectively lobby because it is a charity. It failed in 1988 and then, in 1996 appointed and paid the same lobbying firm that it had employed and had failed in 1988. You couldn't make it up! And BASC, remember, was part on both occasions of that Shooting Sports Council that agreed it.

Look at the BASC fiasco with Richard Ali. Yet the organisation appoints staff who have often never ever been BASC members. Thus you've staff who whilst happy enough to be paid by BASC were never happy enough (if they had sort of shooting background at all!) to be members of it. In effect...carpetbaggers I'm sorry to say. Surely to God the first question at interview to these should be "Why do you want to work for BASC and have its members pay your wages when you've never ever yourself seen fit to be a BASC Member?"

And all these reserves of money are for what? Because if we go on like this there won't be any point in having them "to defend and promote shooting sports" because there won't be ANY shooting sports in any meaningful form that we the ordinary punters can enjoy to take part in.

BASC should have taken a Judicial Review on the medical issue and it should have done it when these measures were initiated in Scotland? What does that "B" stand for "BRITISH" or "BUGGER" as in "BUGGER ALL INTEREST TO US HERE AT MARFORD MILL MATE BECAUSE IT'S NOT HERE IN ENGLAND?"

In essence BASC has failed. We had no bans after the Cumbria shootings I now feel not because of BASC but in spite of BASC. Because Cameron was Prime Minister. And this medical certification issue has shown that this is true. BASC's claim to be the "Voice of Shooting" is a hollow boast evidenced by its now wilful inaction.

For the last two decades plus I paid money to BASC thinking that I was paying not just for insurance but for something extra. And that extra is what? John Swift's pronouncement's on lead shot and tens, scores of thousands spent on the Richard Ali debacle. In effect I've paid a Guinea price for what turns out to be a Half Crown performance!

Not any more. I've joined SACS. I get the insurance and it comes without any pretence that I'm getting much other than that. Maybe I don't get free Game Fair admission. But somehow I think I'll be spending more than any saving I might have made on that on Doctor's fees that's a cold comfort.

So. BASC. The "Voice of Shooting" or, more like, not a voice at all. Just a silence that gives a consent. A silence that is as deafening as it is shameful in its acceptance, acquiescence and total abnegation of what yet another slash, another slice in the "death by a thousand cuts" that successive UK Governments are inflicting on our sport.

I doubt if with the current faces in the choir that it'll see the next generation out. But the staff at BASC, those ones that were happy to take the job, to have its members pay their wages when they've never ever themselves seen fit to be a BASC Member? Probably won't care..they'll no doubt be anticipating their pensions, funded by its members, shortly maturing.
 
Last edited:
I have to admit I have been a BASC member for just a few short years but Enfields analysis is correct and one should always judge the value of any pounds you spend. Some orgs, one in particular is shameful thats why I will not be a member again, nor thus a force for internal change.
 
I have to admit I have been a BASC member for just a few short years but Enfields analysis is correct and one should always judge the value of any pounds you spend. Some orgs, one in particular is shameful thats why I will not be a member again, nor thus a force for internal change.
That'll not bother the die hard basc members nothing seems to .....
 
I couldn't agree more with Enfield's analysis. I await the response from the BASC staff here with great anticipation as I'm certain they'll be falling over themselves to clarify the issue . . . . . .
 

Attachments

  • Tumbleweed.webp
    Tumbleweed.webp
    24 KB · Views: 16
Kes,with the greatest of respect, but a serious question, do you believe any of the current shooting/field sports ect,orgs really make any difference or indeed could they under totally new faces in the chair really make a difference, It seems with the past restrictive legislation's ,handguns,semi auto centerfire, were all foisted upon us despite our objections and common sense pleading. forgive me but you and many others have pointed this out often enough, everyone from us upwards just seem to go through the motions, the shooting org representatives just repeat it to committees who seem to have no idea what is being explained to them, and on it goes, right to the top where we find the police pulling all the strings, and ignorant politicians have to be seen to be doing "something" about the problem believing their every word whether fact of false. seems like any incident relating to the fact that the police losing control of the streets is simply used as another excuse to persecute the law abiding.

guns and their legal owners have been demonised by the media, were an easy target, mention any black drug gangs, tommy robinson, illegal imigrants and connected rises in crime, and get branded racist, xenophobic, ethnocentric, ect,ect,
nobody cares if you demonise law abiding gun and knife owners.

I feel like saying much more but feel probably it would end badly.


I'm sorry not to have answered your question above directly.
In answer to the question in the first sentence, I do actually believe a change would make a difference. I cant and have never seen anything that might be called tenacious about BASC's or others attitudes. In my mind this leads the police to believe that they can run roughshod over the shooting community or more correctly some in the police. The police are made up of people like us - pursue a valid argument vigorously and they will sit up and listen. Signal amongst the opportunities missed, as Enfield has said was the medical issue. That should have been grabbed and used to beat Chief Constables over the head - why lobby MP's. Take the parallel over anti-semitism, Labour and Corbyn's position. If he doesnt adopt the internationally agreed definition he's an anti-semite, absolutely no excuse for his position and he will rue the day, whereas Chief Cons KNOW they can push BASC et al around with impunity. Is this medical thing 'intelligence -led', fair or just - no, and HO advice says so - ergo go for the throat and make them withdraw.

Just a silly comparison but when I did emergency planning and we had high winds some years ago, I advised the police I would like to see police escorts for those sent out to remove fallen trees to free up traffic (about 10 down across roads). They agreed but had not thought of it so were very keen to comply and were grateful for the input. So much so I received a police escort home through the traffic !
I advocated strongly a wind warning system on susceptible bridges, stacking lorries but allowing slow moving cars if safe to do so. Closing motorways totally screws the side road system so a limited and controlled use would obviate that. Simple to set up and could have been part of an emergency response but above the normal police paygrade - so it didnt happen. Their internal systems are run as fiefdoms and they are trained not to question their superiors. They need civilian justification to force through good ideas like selling illegal guns on the legal market, rather than just chopping them up for scrap. Pistols was a prime example. They could easily have sold them abroad - confiscated (pistols and sub Machine guns) and made some cash and paid better compensation. They still could.
Ideas are currency with many official groups, BASC et Al are broke and have always been so because they belong to the 'establishment', in fact they are made up of the establishment at senior level.

I'm sorry its easy to criticise but everyone can see the justification for it, even if they don't agree that criticism helps 'sharpen' an organisation response. My experience is that it gets you places if done correctly.
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry not to have answered your question above directly.
In answer to the question in the first sentence, I do actually believe a change would make a difference. I cant and have never seen anything that might be called tenacious about BASC's or others attitudes. In my mind this leads the police to believe that they can run roughshod over the shooting community or more correctly some in the police. The police are made up of people like us - pursue a valid argument vigorously and they will sit up and listen. Signal amongst the opportunities missed, as Enfield has said was the medical issue. That should have been grabbed and used to beat Chief Constables over the head - why lobby MP's. Take the parallel over anti-semitism, Labour and Corbyn's position. If he doesnt adopt the internationally agreed definition he's an anti-semite, absolutely no excuse for his position and he will rue the day, whereas Chief Cons KNOW they can push BASC et al around with impunity. Is this medical thing 'intelligence -led', fair or just - no, and HO advice says so - ergo go for the throat and make them withdraw.

Just a silly comparison but when I did emergency planning and we had high winds some years ago, I advised the police I would like to see police escorts for those sent out to remove fallen trees to free up traffic (about 10 down across roads). They agreed but had not thought of it so were very keen to comply and were grateful for the input. So much so I received a police escort home through the traffic !
I advocated strongly a wind warning system on susceptible bridges, stacking lorries but allowing slow moving cars if safe to do so. Closing motorways totally screws the side road system so a limited and controlled use would obviate that. Simple to set up and could have been part of an emergency response but above the normal police paygrade - so it didnt happen. Their internal systems are run as fiefdoms and they are trained not to question their superiors. They need civilian justification to force through good ideas like selling illegal guns on the legal market, rather than just chopping them up for scrap. Pistols was a prime example. They could easily have sold them abroad - confiscated (pistols and sub Machine guns) and made some cash and paid better compensation. They still could.
Ideas are currency with many official groups, BASC et Al are broke and have always been so because they belong to the 'establishment', in fact they are made up of the establishment at senior level.

I'm sorry its easy to criticise but everyone can see the justification for it, even if they don't agree that criticism helps 'sharpen' an organisation response. My experience is that it gets you places if done correctly.


thank you kes for taking the time to answer, you make several good points.

with regard to the sale of illegal and more so "confiscated/ surrendered" to comply with legislation, This evidently did happen with the L1A1 british rifles, but not necessarily with the purpose of getting a better compensatory deal for the owners.

here, half way down the page, The SRA Blog: Sowing the Wind
 
Enfield, for once you are spot on and I couldn't agree more with your views. I know we can't expect David from BASC to make any more statements on their behalf but you would think senior management would at least know what is happening at grass roots level and speak to their members. They are definitely not the "The Voice of Shooting" and thank God I am not a member.
 
I notice the Medical Issues thread on BASC website has been updated - at least the date has - to the 3rd August, can anyone let me know what has changed as having read it innumerable times I cannot notice the difference - must be getting old.
 
To over simplify results of action and getting noticed, every year in France, if the farmers are not happy, they enter Paris with tractors with a drive thru, the same notice of actions apply with air traffic controllers going on strike.
If such a low level of employment can make a difference with a voice to politicians and get results politically and at grass roots level, why can't a voice that appears to be so close to politicians and the police appear to more?
 
To over simplify results of action and getting noticed, every year in France, if the farmers are not happy, they enter Paris with tractors with a drive thru, the same notice of actions apply with air traffic controllers going on strike.
If such a low level of employment can make a difference with a voice to politicians and get results politically and at grass roots level, why can't a voice that appears to be so close to politicians and the police appear to more?

I think you answer your own question. Who sees the anger and frustration of disaffected groups? The farmers involve everyone in a highly visual and highly disruptive protest which they repeat. They are a minority (and shrinking) but France does value its home industries and exposing politicians - in this way is clearly prefereable to talking in smoke-filled rooms - an example perhaps.
Do you believe BASC is close to politicians or do you think it helps to sell their organisation ?
Have you heard anything since from anybody - wouldnt you keep members informed even by a confidential letter?
BASC e.g. knows this is improtant, it has a 'policy updates' page on its website - it just doesn't update it much and when it does it doesn't help.
No action against Lincolnshire, nothing on Merseyside, nothing on Scotland, 2 years in, no action against the Home Office.
It doesnt seem to me be a highly effective strategy, a bit like the 10 year licence mess that spawned all this.
 
I was wrong about Merseyside.
This from the BASC website

"[FONT=&quot]On 19 July we were informed by Merseyside Police’s chief constable that he will not be entering into any further correspondence with BASC on this matter."

Not exactly success for the 'lobbying approach' and not exactly a ringing endorsement of the influence of the ' Voice of Shooting'.

(Or clearly no-one is listening to it.)
Maybe polish up the QC and see if he listens to a judicial review. [/FONT]
 
I was wrong about Merseyside.
This from the BASC website

"[FONT=&amp]On 19 July we were informed by Merseyside Police’s chief constable that he will not be entering into any further correspondence with BASC on this matter."

Not exactly success for the 'lobbying approach' and not exactly a ringing endorsement of the influence of the ' Voice of Shooting'.

(Or clearly no-one is listening to it.)
Maybe polish up the QC and see if he listens to a judicial review. [/FONT]
Not to worry the basc brigade will still keep pouring money into thier coffers happy days !
 
Back
Top