"Of sound mind and not of intemperate habits"....sounds very dated,almost Victorian,....and what exactly is a sound mind? A revamp of the SGC criteria is long overdue...at least in this case it appear that the 100 year disclosure rule will not apply as it did in Dunblane.....
BASC statement on IOPC report into Keyham shootings
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
Interesting that the D&C chief constable said in a tv statement that the cost to the force of each licence is (from memory) £500+, pretty much the highest in the country, which, she says, the fee should cover, although D&C have the highest number of firearms per head of population in the country. So either some forces have miscalculated or D&C are particularly inefficient.
She also went on to point out the the licence is cheaper than the weapons, storage cabinets and club memberships.
She also went on to point out the the licence is cheaper than the weapons, storage cabinets and club memberships.
Hod
Well-Known Member
Interesting doesn’t do that justice. Mind boggling that the Police gave him a SGC, and gave it back too.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
The following articles in the national press where BASC has been quoted may be of interest:
Plymouth shooter’s sister and brother criticise failure to toughen gun laws
Police temporary permit reliance raised in The Times - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation
UK shooting lobby to fight demands to tighten shotgun ownership rules
Plymouth shooter’s sister and brother criticise failure to toughen gun laws
Police temporary permit reliance raised in The Times - The British Association for Shooting and Conservation
UK shooting lobby to fight demands to tighten shotgun ownership rules
Conor, thanks for that, without having to read the whole document
Statutory guidance for police on firearms licensing
issue 14th February 2023 what has changed of significance from that of the previous issue with regards medical check’s and is the document now legislative statutory or not?also rumour has it that it is now a legal requirement for all GPs to engage in completing the medical report, is this true?
And finally I am hearing that the police lead on firearms is calling for a ban on all pump action shotguns and semi-auto shotguns and a limit on how many shotguns an individual may keep, have you any information on this?
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@Liveonce, I had a look at the new guidance the other day, key points seem to be:
- more detail about the medical process,
- a new section about checking social media accounts, the default being only to check what is publicly available but there is a bit about enhanced checks if considered necessary; and
- more detail about how to assess suitability in relation to previous offences and other police intelligence when either granting or revoking certificates.
Where have you heard about a ban on semis & pumps and the limit on numbers? The former of those wouldn’t surprise me at all, as there’s been talk of it on and off for years but (surprisingly) I haven’t seen it feature much in news articles over the last week.
- more detail about the medical process,
- a new section about checking social media accounts, the default being only to check what is publicly available but there is a bit about enhanced checks if considered necessary; and
- more detail about how to assess suitability in relation to previous offences and other police intelligence when either granting or revoking certificates.
Where have you heard about a ban on semis & pumps and the limit on numbers? The former of those wouldn’t surprise me at all, as there’s been talk of it on and off for years but (surprisingly) I haven’t seen it feature much in news articles over the last week.
Comments from a FEO who visited me last week, not sure if it’s just his personal comments or police agenda.
I did reply that such prohibition would need compensation paid which would be a lot given the number of such shotguns in use. However they could possibly avoid that by the same method they did with those brocock self-contained air cartridge pistols, they moved them to Section 5, issued the owners with a FAC then the owners could not sell, give or transfer them, but could use them until death or surrendered to the Police.
Hopefully no truth in what he was suggesting.
Part 5 of the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 added airguns that use a self-contained air cartridge system to Sec.5 of the Firearms Act, effectively placing them in the same category legally as machine guns and grenade launchers. Only around 1500 were surrendered and 6000 put on a firearm licence (an option allowed only before the ban) . BASC estimates that around 68000 are still in circulation, the owners of which will face prosecution should they be found in possession or decide to hand them in to the police. Essentially, somewhere near 70000 new serious criminals were created overnight. Another 'feel-good' law that achieved nothing in the way of public safety and only the destruction of people's hobbies and property.
it’s sad to say but I cannot think of a single issue around firearms ownership that we have ever won, once they have an agenda they just roll it out regardless all in the name of public safety.
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Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
If you have nothing to hide, you will have no problem is the way i see it.
Over the recent tragic shootings its only logical that there are going to be changes!
Personally i think in years to come its going to get much worse.
Over the recent tragic shootings its only logical that there are going to be changes!
Personally i think in years to come its going to get much worse.
rumour has it that it is now a legal requirement for all GPs to engage in completing the medical report, is this true?
I do not believe so.
Unless their contract with the NHS is changed to include a requirement to engage with the GP report part of the firearms licensing process, I cannot see that GPs can be legally forced to engage with the process
Given the current state of the NHS and the GP service in general, I don't think it's an issue that any government would want to push too hard on, especially since there are services such as Medcert which will do the work.
Cheers
Bruce
I do not believe so.
Unless their contract with the NHS is changed to include a requirement to engage with the GP report part of the firearms licensing process, I cannot see that GPs can be legally forced to engage with the process
Given the current state of the NHS and the GP service in general, I don't think it's an issue that any government would want to push too hard on, especially since there are services such as Medcert which will do the work.
Cheers
Bruce
His good reason to possess is irrelevant, it's so easy to join a clay pigeon club for instance.
Was he of sound mind? I think it is very clear the answer is no both at grant and when his shotguns were returned.
Change the law? To much time is wasted on aurging if a 243 or 308 etc etc which diverts poli resources.
Was he of sound mind? I think it is very clear the answer is no both at grant and when his shotguns were returned.
Change the law? To much time is wasted on aurging if a 243 or 308 etc etc which diverts poli resources.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Correct it is too easy, 2 or 3 paid outings, receipts proving that you have been stalking and bobs your fanny FAC sorted.
That could be anyone!
What would you change it too though? I'm currently waiting for my FAC to go through. The only thing I've done in addition to what you list above, is my DSC1.
I could actually gain a lot more experience if I had my own rifle. Being restricted to paid stalks with estate rifles. They're pretty booked up, with the big estate near me not even bothering to get back to me.
Make it too hard and it'll hugely decline and it's not like stalkers are open arms to introduce newcomers as they're often just seen as a threat to permissions.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I dont know the answers, but i know one thing , after having an FAC for 20 years I certainly wouldn’t go through the hassle of applying for one, simply not worth it in my opinion the good days are long gone.
Thanks @Liveonce, I also remember the brocock ban but can’t recall any evidence that they were being successfully converted.
I can think of a few things we’ve “won” on but the list is certainly shorter, and the victories less considerable, than where we’ve lost. I did have to chuckle when the Gruniad did an article referring to the “powerful U.K. gun lobby”, I can’t help but think they’re looking to stir by suggesting the situation here is some way like in the USA.
@Norfolk Deer Search I don’t see how “if you’ve got nothing to hide you’ve got nothing to fear”. I quite like shooting with a semi 12b and it would be my first choice if planning to use heavy loads. I also have more than 1 shotgun. I’d prefer for that not to change just because D&C didn’t see fit to revoke a SGC from someone who viciously assaulted a teenager.
I wouldn’t particularly mind good reason being needed for the grant of the license (but not each gun) as it could help keep guns out of the hands of loons like Davison who, it would seem, was more interested in owning a gun for the sake of it rather than using it. It isn’t a bit ask to join a clay club but, if you had to attend regularly, that may be enough to put off those who don’t want to shoot, they just want to keep a gun at home.
I can think of a few things we’ve “won” on but the list is certainly shorter, and the victories less considerable, than where we’ve lost. I did have to chuckle when the Gruniad did an article referring to the “powerful U.K. gun lobby”, I can’t help but think they’re looking to stir by suggesting the situation here is some way like in the USA.
@Norfolk Deer Search I don’t see how “if you’ve got nothing to hide you’ve got nothing to fear”. I quite like shooting with a semi 12b and it would be my first choice if planning to use heavy loads. I also have more than 1 shotgun. I’d prefer for that not to change just because D&C didn’t see fit to revoke a SGC from someone who viciously assaulted a teenager.
I wouldn’t particularly mind good reason being needed for the grant of the license (but not each gun) as it could help keep guns out of the hands of loons like Davison who, it would seem, was more interested in owning a gun for the sake of it rather than using it. It isn’t a bit ask to join a clay club but, if you had to attend regularly, that may be enough to put off those who don’t want to shoot, they just want to keep a gun at home.
Sorry but why is it logical that there are going to be changes, the D&C police did not apply the current law, so why will more laws stop that? He was given his guns back without a proper review of the case. The FEO has resigned.
This is a lack of resources, no formal training and a communications problem all internal to the police.
I see no evidence that points to inadequate firearms laws that contributed to this sad event.
I am most surprised at some calls on here for even greater regulation. I have said many times before that ALL incidences of legally held guns used in homicides are down to Police failures of process. Process is driven by the purpose to which the process relates which is to ensure that potentially deadly guns do NOT fall in to the wrong hands. ALL such failures are down to the POLICE failing in their duty of care to ensure only applicants which meet the requirements are allowed firearms. We do not need more hoops to jump through, we need the existing ones to be applied rigorously. The POLICE cannot claim that costs are the reason they fail to apply the process correctly and as was intended. The purpose to apply the existing process correctly is the safeguarding of PUBLIC SAFETY in this they simply cannot claim cost as the reason for failure.
Make the Guidance statutory and give the process to a separate organisation which can be given access to full police records. Stop the issuing of s7 unless it relates to the death of a former firearm owner and penalise any forces which fails in its priomary duty of care and penalise those who have blatantly miss-applied existing rules, resulting in loss of life.
Make the Guidance statutory and give the process to a separate organisation which can be given access to full police records. Stop the issuing of s7 unless it relates to the death of a former firearm owner and penalise any forces which fails in its priomary duty of care and penalise those who have blatantly miss-applied existing rules, resulting in loss of life.
Hear what you are saying Bruce, just would like a definitive answer following my discussion with a visiting FEO last week.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
Look at the bigger picture, regardless if D & C did their job correctly or not, members of the public were killed using legally owned guns!
That’s exactly how the public will see it.
It won’t matter what we think, things will tighten up that’s for sure and they will not worry about us in the slightest.
I agree that this is basically how it will go down. The general public have a view that nobody has any reason to own a gun. Same with pocket knives, which have been successfully rebranded from a useful tool into a thing that's only purpose is to kill a human
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