BASC statement on IOPC report into Keyham shootings

[Liveonce]

Look at the bigger picture, regardless if D & C did their job correctly or not, members of the public were killed using legally owned guns!

That’s exactly how the public will see it.

It won’t matter what we think, things will tighten up that’s for sure and they will not worry about us in the slightest.

That is exactly the defeatist attitude that has got us no where over the years. We need to push back, BASC has done some already but would the NRA usa just sit back and take it? If need be pay for adverts in the news papers or even on the TV, show the public how D&C cocked up get the message across to the public, show the government enough is enough and we will no longer sit quite like we did for Dunblane when the reports were locked away for a 100 years.

Otherwise their is no future for shooting, lose pump shotguns and semi-autos now, then what next time they use an over and under or a bolt action rifle as sooner or latter it may be a firearm of the type you actual use, will you then feel the same way.

 

[Jh1986]

would the NRA usa just sit back and take it?

They basically have political backing. We simply don't have the voter numbers for politicians to care. Easier for them to please the non-shooters

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

That is exactly the defeatist attitude that has got us no where over the years. We need to push back, BASC has done some already but would the NRA usa just sit back and take it? If need be pay for adverts in the news papers or even on the TV, show the public how D&C cocked up get the message across to the public, show the government enough is enough and we will no longer sit quite like we did for Dunblane when the reports were locked away for a 100 years.

Otherwise their is no future for shooting, lose pump shotguns and semi-autos now, then what next time they use an over and under or a bolt action rifle as sooner or latter it may be a firearm of the type you actual use, will you then feel the same way.

Dream on!

If there was a public vote tomorrow on the ownership of legally owned guns, i am fairly sure we would loose badly.

In the USA it’s different, the NRA have political clout, here we are but a pi$$ hole in the snow, there is not enough to hold political swing.

This is something everyone needs to get their head around, many more incidents with legal guns and the public and we will he FUKED

It will be actions of a few that will hold consequences of the many.

 

[cjm1066]

Look at how many different types of knives have been banned in recent years, just like the pistol bann it satisfies the public/media, disadvanges some and make @@@@@ difference to anyone's safety.

@@@@@ over to Norfolk Deer Search for a coloquial term

 

[Rory]

Dream on!

If there was a public vote tomorrow on the ownership of legally owned guns, i am fairly sure we would loose badly.

In the USA it’s different, the NRA have political clout, here we are but a pi$$ hole in the snow, there is not enough to hold political swing.

This is something everyone needs to get their head around, many more incidents with legal guns and the public and we will he FUKED

It will be actions of a few that will hold consequences of the many.

My, you are a little ray of sunshine, aren't you?
Every single one of your posts is defeatist and demonstrates the '1 OK, stick OK' attitude that is so toxic.
As a shooting community, we definitely need to be more coherent and lead with a positive narrative. Ownership of failure needs to be correctly attributed, not borne by the one of the most regulated and scrutinised groups in the land.
Unfortunately, the pre-eminant body that is supposed to represent the majority seems to be dithering, which certainly means that more needs to be done, whether lobbying local MP's, greater engagement with FEO's, better PR for shooting in general.

 

[Liveonce]

Is it not better to go down fighting?

The public opinion of the police is possibly at a record low, the government not that popular and less than two years to turn that around before the next election.

I just think if we do nothing we deserve all we get.

BASC/CPSA all orgs together need to fund and employ a PR manager we have role models like George Digweed, Amber Hills etc etc.

In my experience joe blogs has no opinion about shooting, until such a sad event happens then only what they get fed by the media.

 

[Liveonce]

They basically have political backing. We simply don't have the voter numbers for politicians to care. Easier for them to please the non-shooters

We have some

BASC provides the secretariat for the 150-strong all party parliamentary group on shooting and conservation. The chair of the group, the Conservative MP for The Cotswolds Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, is a vice-president of BASC. One of the group’s secretaries, the peer and former police chief constable Geoffrey Dear, is BASC president.

 

[timbrayford]

Interesting that the D&C chief constable said in a tv statement that the cost to the force of each licence is (from memory) £500+, pretty much the highest in the country, which, she says, the fee should cover, although D&C have the highest number of firearms per head of population in the country. So either some forces have miscalculated or D&C are particularly inefficient.
She also went on to point out the the licence is cheaper than the weapons, storage cabinets and club memberships.

The D&C chief constable misunderstands the basic ethos behind the firearms act. It exists to protect the general public from the misuse of firearms and as a general protection measure it's only fair that it's administration is paid for from general taxation. Apart from this context the shooting community derives no benefit from the act.

 

[kes]

We have some

BASC provides the secretariat for the 150-strong all party parliamentary group on shooting and conservation. The chair of the group, the Conservative MP for The Cotswolds Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, is a vice-president of BASC. One of the group’s secretaries, the peer and former police chief constable Geoffrey Dear, is BASC president.

I agree but what have they and e.g. BASC done up to this point - I do not mean words as they are largely meaningless - action and related intelligent use of media is needed - BASC are supposed to be able to do this after the Media centre but what has that achieved - time it did NOW for its members.

 

[Jh1986]

I agree but what have they and e.g. BASC done up to this point - I do not mean words as they are largely meaningless - action and related intelligent use of media is needed - BASC are supposed to be able to do this after the Media centre but what has that achieved - time it did NOW for its members.

They're a member's insurance provider, and magazine distributor... That's it as far as I can tell

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

My, you are a little ray of sunshine, aren't you?
Every single one of your posts is defeatist and demonstrates the '1 OK, stick OK' attitude that is so toxic.
As a shooting community, we definitely need to be more coherent and lead with a positive narrative. Ownership of failure needs to be correctly attributed, not borne by the one of the most regulated and scrutinised groups in the land.
Unfortunately, the pre-eminant body that is supposed to represent the majority seems to be dithering, which certainly means that more needs to be done, whether lobbying local MP's, greater engagement with FEO's, better PR for shooting in general.

You tell me where what i have said is wrong?

 

[Rory]

You tell me where what i have said is wrong?

From the 2nd page;
You wouldn't go through the process again, the best days are gone. But you're quite happy to continue with the ever increasing scrutiny. Others starting out have to deal with a load more issues to even get a FAC. You also say how it is almost too easy to get a FAC these days (2 or 3 paid stalks and receipts), almost agreeing that there should be MUCH more scrutiny of applicants.
You say regardless of where the blame lies (D&C police in this instance), that it will just fall on the shooting community. Why be so defeatist? As pointed out, this is unlike the other scenario where there is a 100 year report block. This can be used against further strictures placed on shooters and more scrutiny on police doing their due diligence to a higher standard.
This is not shooters in generals error, it should not affect us in general.

 

[Alces Alces]

Here we go again, the law abiding majority about to be penalised after another major error made by the police. Echoes of the Dunblane shootings resulting in the hideous slaughter of school children by the known to be 'unhinged' Thomas Hamilton.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

it should not affect us in general.

But it WILL in the public eye!

The public hold the minority vote - FACT

We hold no political clout - FACT

And there is Fek all we can do about it.

 

[andyk]

I don’t think it’s correct to assume there’s no point in opposing any changes to legislation.

I’m not one who thinks that if we just had a more effective/noisy org to represent shooting interests then we could oppose any changes just like the NRA does in the US. The political landscape here is completely different, there is simply no political capital to be gained by being vociferously pro-shooting.

However, there have been successes in opposing and lessening the effects of proposals in the past, e.g. the 50 cal ban and a number of attempts to place air guns on license.

Here, there will be a hardened group of gun control advocates who will push for all manner of extra measures, officially for public safety but in reality to try to make gun ownership so hard that people give up. Government will want to be seen to do something and with that in mind it is unrealistic to think nothing will change.

Nonetheless, I still think there is hope that effective lobbying could convince government to not go as far as some would hope, e.g. by keeping s2 and adding a “good reason” requirement to the certificate and not the individual gun, or to avoid a ban on pumps and semis.

If we just accept there’s no point, we’ll get 100% of the regulation the gun control lot want, rather than just some of it.

Of course, I wonder if a certain member of this forum is a bit of a gun control masochist.

 

[Benelli m2]

So let's say if shotguns are put on fac what about cartridges will it be the same as purchasing bullets and allowed so many

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Conor, thanks for that, without having to read the whole document

Statutory guidance for police on firearms licensing​

issue 14th February 2023 what has changed of significance from that of the previous issue with regards medical check’s and is the document now legislative statutory or not?

also rumour has it that it is now a legal requirement for all GPs to engage in completing the medical report, is this true?

And finally I am hearing that the police lead on firearms is calling for a ban on all pump action shotguns and semi-auto shotguns and a limit on how many shotguns an individual may keep, have you any information on this?

@Liveonce, I had a look at the new guidance the other day, key points seem to be:

- more detail about the medical process,
- a new section about checking social media accounts, the default being only to check what is publicly available but there is a bit about enhanced checks if considered necessary; and
- more detail about how to assess suitability in relation to previous offences and other police intelligence when either granting or revoking certificates.

Where have you heard about a ban on semis & pumps and the limit on numbers? The former of those wouldn’t surprise me at all, as there’s been talk of it on and off for years but (surprisingly) I haven’t seen it feature much in news articles over the last week.

@Liveonce I think @andyk has done a good summary of the latest statutory guidance above. As regards suggestions for changes in firearms law around shotguns this is one of the recommendations in the IOPC report (i.e. The IOPC recommends that legislation and national guidance are amended to remove any distinction between the processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders) and there have also been comments in the media by MPs Luke Pollard and Johnny Mercer.

As per the OP BASC's statement in relation to all of this was as follows:

BASC is clear that we need a system of licensing that protects public safety and also provides an efficient service. It is plain to see that that system was absent in Keyham with tragic consequences.

It is obvious from the comments of the coroner and the verdict of the jury at the inquests that the fault lay not with the existing laws but with their inconsistent application by Devon and Cornwall Police.

BASC has written to the coroner to outline key steps that could help prevent future shootings and will discuss these recommendations in meetings with government in the weeks ahead.

BASC has previously asked for the creation of a national regulator to monitor and manage both firearms licensing and the training of police staff and officers to improved standard.

We also want a system that ensures the medical profession has a statutory obligation to engage fully with the licensing system.

BASC is also a member of the Home Office Fees Working Group and we will be representing the views of the shooting community in any consultation and discussion around future licensing fees.

However, while supportive of considered measures that improve public safety, we would challenge the IOPC recommendation to remove the distinction between processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders.

This would impose an unnecessary burden that would do nothing to improve public safety. Indeed, it would place a further, unmanageable workload on firearms licensing teams that are already failing to meet their statutory obligations to protect the public. That recommendation, if implemented, would have a significant, detrimental impact on the service the police are able to provide to the community.

BASC will meet with government in the coming weeks to ensure that the views of the shooting community are represented and that the change needed to protect public safety is proportionate, effective and are not at the cost of the lawful, legitimate firearms community.

 

[Liveonce]

@Liveonce I think @andyk has done a good summary of the latest statutory guidance above. As regards suggestions for changes in firearms law around shotguns this is one of the recommendations in the IOPC report (i.e. The IOPC recommends that legislation and national guidance are amended to remove any distinction between the processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders) and there have also been comments in the media by MPs Luke Pollard and Johnny Mercer.

As per the OP BASC's statement in relation to all of this was as follows:

BASC is clear that we need a system of licensing that protects public safety and also provides an efficient service. It is plain to see that that system was absent in Keyham with tragic consequences.

It is obvious from the comments of the coroner and the verdict of the jury at the inquests that the fault lay not with the existing laws but with their inconsistent application by Devon and Cornwall Police.

BASC has written to the coroner to outline key steps that could help prevent future shootings and will discuss these recommendations in meetings with government in the weeks ahead.

BASC has previously asked for the creation of a national regulator to monitor and manage both firearms licensing and the training of police staff and officers to improved standard.

We also want a system that ensures the medical profession has a statutory obligation to engage fully with the licensing system.

BASC is also a member of the Home Office Fees Working Group and we will be representing the views of the shooting community in any consultation and discussion around future licensing fees.

However, while supportive of considered measures that improve public safety, we would challenge the IOPC recommendation to remove the distinction between processes and requirements in relation to shotgun and firearms certificate holders.

This would impose an unnecessary burden that would do nothing to improve public safety. Indeed, it would place a further, unmanageable workload on firearms licensing teams that are already failing to meet their statutory obligations to protect the public. That recommendation, if implemented, would have a significant, detrimental impact on the service the police are able to provide to the community.

BASC will meet with government in the coming weeks to ensure that the views of the shooting community are represented and that the change needed to protect public safety is proportionate, effective and are not at the cost of the lawful, legitimate firearms community.

Conor,

But is the statutory guide primary legislation ?

and is GP engagement in the process now a legal requirement?

would appreciate a yes, no. answer.

 

[Greenmist]

If there was a public vote tomorrow on the ownership of legally owned guns, i am fairly sure we would loose badly.

Not so sure on that, I suspect the turn out would be poor, I don't believe its an issue the general public care greatly about

 

[badmolassesaccident]

If you have nothing to hide, you will have no problem is the way i see it.

Over the recent tragic shootings its only logical that there are going to be changes!

Personally i think in years to come its going to get much worse.

That’s contrary to the progression of increasingly restrictive firearms laws since the dawn of the firearms act.

Most recently, do you think the owners of MARS rifles had nothing to fear? Obvs, these people are no longer owners of MARS rifles.