Basc voluntary lead ban

New Avon Arms
The fourth Horseman said:
Almost written as a BASC employee. However I am not a critic of BASC, I have for many, many years thought it to be a useless cash cow after knowing a couple of high ranking employees and therefore have no need for further criticism.
You will find from my posts that I am somewhat annoyed with the NGO for signing up to this. I am one of their very early members but will not be renewing. I will take private insurance because I no longer believe in supporting any shooting organisation purporting to be working for its members and not standing firm on defence eg Med certs.
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I did not actually have you on my list of the usual suspects for a jibe about being a "BASC apologist". For what it is worth I am a member of 6 different countryside organisations; with the exception of one (the BDS) ALL are listed as a signatory on the announcement.


The simple fact is that this thread has succumbed, indeed it started out party to, the "in group morality / out-group hostility" sentiment against a certain organisation that has become prevalent on this site in recent times. It has become so prevalent that there is almost a cognitive dissonance when confronted with simple facts, if they are even recognised.

@enfieldspares showed what I suspect to be the reasoning behind ALL the organisations getting behind this when he posted the reply he received from the CPSA:

European legislation is, in all likelihood, going to outlaw lead in food products - therefore the European market for British Game will disappear.
Waitrose is refusing to buy game with lead in it, the other major supermarkets will probably follow suit - therefore the British market for game will disappear.
Without either of these markets Game Shooting becomes unsustainable. Fact.

The ONLY way to continue shooting is to move with the times and appease public opinion and faceless bureaucrats. The science, in this instance, matters not a jot. We have been painted into a corner.

The major organisations all recognise this. Whether you agree with it or not is entirely irrelevant. The truth is that there are fights that you can win, and there are fights that you cannot. In signing up to this statement the organisations have done exactly what they are supposed to do, they have defended the continued existence of shooting by realising that the ONLY way to continue game shooting in the modern day is to change with the times. If that defence means that a handful of people can no longer use their 100yr old guns to indulge their passions then so be it.
 
Island said:
I did not actually have you on my list of the usual suspects for a jibe about being a "BASC apologist". For what it is worth I am a member of 6 different countryside organisations; with the exception of one (the BDS) ALL are listed as a signatory on the announcement.


The simple fact is that this thread has succumbed, indeed it started out party to, the "in group morality / out-group hostility" sentiment against a certain organisation that has become prevalent on this site in recent times. It has become so prevalent that there is almost a cognitive dissonance when confronted with simple facts, if they are even recognised.

@enfieldspares showed what I suspect to be the reasoning behind ALL the organisations getting behind this when he posted the reply he received from the CPSA:

European legislation is, in all likelihood, going to outlaw lead in food products - therefore the European market for British Game will disappear.
Waitrose is refusing to buy game with lead in it, the other major supermarkets will probably follow suit - therefore the British market for game will disappear.
Without either of these markets Game Shooting becomes unsustainable. Fact.

The ONLY way to continue shooting is to move with the times and appease public opinion and faceless bureaucrats. The science, in this instance, matters not a jot. We have been painted into a corner.

The major organisations all recognise this. Whether you agree with it or not is entirely irrelevant. The truth is that there are fights that you can win, and there are fights that you cannot. In signing up to this statement the organisations have done exactly what they are supposed to do, they have defended the continued existence of shooting by realising that the ONLY way to continue game shooting in the modern day is to change with the times. If that defence means that a handful of people can no longer use their 100yr old guns to indulge their passions then so be it.
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If it were only a handful ! There are a great many people in possession of "Best" English guns and I am not indulging a passion as you put it, I shoot well with it.
Your reasoning about the sale of game is flawed Iam afraid, I note you shoot driven game. In my area one has to pay dealers to take game away and venison is at rock bottom (only neck or head shot taken). There is no longer a market for it and what Waitrose sell would hardly feed my extended family.
We will have to differ on all parts of the discussion I am afraid particularly the stance of our orgs ref Med certs and their reluctance to fight for anything.
 
This is a copy that I'v just been sent by my Org . And as I suspected this deal was a done well before we had a sniff of there stand .

Q/ SACS statement on proposed five-year transition from lead shot and single-use plastics
Forever, shooters have been at the mercy of events, ideology and politics, but for the future of shooting we can no longer sidestep the reality that the lead shot agenda is rapidly slipping from our control to others less well-disposed to shooting and rural life. Whilst it is exasperating that the metal we have so long used as a suitably dense and relatively cheap projectile material happens to be toxic, that is a strategic threat we now cannot shy away from.
Thus, after much reflection and foresight, the Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust, British Game Alliance, British Association for Shooting and Conservation, Countryside Alliance, Country Land & Business Association, Moorland Association, National Gamekeepers Association, Scottish Land & Estates and Scottish Association for Country Sports have come together to issue a joint statement proposing a five-year transition. This is not a ban; simply, given the indelible writing on the wall, it is joint support for a five-year withdrawal from lead shot and single-use plastics for quarry shooting.
Rifle ammunition is not included in this transition period, given our position that viable and commercially accessible alternatives are not available for many common UK rifle chamberings. Based on contained ranges, clay target shooting is also not included in this transition.
The eventual loss of lead shot is a big, but inevitable change. Some members will already have, even partly, moved away from lead; for others this is entirely new ground. The SACS management committee has fully considered this matter and given unanimous support. To be brutally candid, whilst it may have been easy to hide behind an excuse while other organisations weathered the inevitable storm, and easy to make-believe that we will be able to use lead forever; to behave like that would have demonstrated the sort of ineffectual leadership that has so often crippled shooting and country sports advocacy.
As a committee, we cannot leave our members, both recreational and professional, to face the likelihood of loss of control of our destiny through a broad lead ban over a shorter timeframe. As a committee we are obligated to do what is right, not what may gain us a few members in the short term, yet then leave those very members high and dry when control of the lead agenda is ultimately lost.
Remember, this is a proposed transition period over five years, not a ban; the intention is to give the cartridge manufacturers the time they need to develop innovative non-lead products. For you and me (I am a vintage gun enthusiast) the aim is to give us the opportunity to make this transition on our own terms in our own time.
For so many of us loss of lead shot is a major hassle, but we must look at this as an opportunity and not a threat. The opportunity is nothing less than the very future of shooting; the threat is, for the sake of the status quo, in naysaying that future is at risk at all.
Please read the Gun Trade Association non-lead factsheet and the FAQs published with the joint statement. Have a think about your own circumstances. Speak with your pals and local gunshop. Get in touch with your representative body. If you are a SACS member and need guidance then contact us.
Shooting representative bodies are taking this joint stance to be in a position of strength in the years ahead when, inevitably, lead faces further decisive restrictions. By working together and promoting research and development into new cartridges and components, we are looking to secure the future of shooting now while we still have time and opportunity.
Alex Stoddart Director, SACS

Now then the joint statement by all the ORGS :
Q/A joint statement on the future of shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting

In consideration of wildlife, the environment and to ensure a market for the healthiest game products, at home and abroad, we wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years. The shooting community must maintain its place at the forefront of wildlife conservation and protection. Sustainability in our practices is of utmost importance.

Many years ago, wetland restrictions demanded a move away from lead shot and we believe it is necessary to begin a further phased transition. Recently, there have been significant developments in the quality and availability of non-lead shotgun cartridges, and plastic cases can now be recycled. For the first time, biodegradable shot cups for steel shot, with the necessary ballistics to ensure lethality, are available. These welcome advances are continuing at an ever-quickening pace, in response to demand from a changing market. Such advances mean that, over the coming years, a complete transition is achievable.

We are jointly calling for our members to engage in this transition and work with us, the Gun Trade Association and the cartridge manufacturers to ensure that further viable alternatives are developed for every situation involving live quarry. This is an opportunity to take the initiative and ensure the reputation of the shooting community, as custodians of the countryside, is both maintained and enhanced.

Alex Stoddart SACS Director
Sarah-Jane Laing SLE Chief Executive
Tim Bonner CA Chief Executive
Tom Adams BGA Managing Director
Ian Bell BASC Chief Executive
Sir Jim Paice GWCT Chairman
Mark Tufnell CLA Vice President
Amanda Anderson MA Director
Liam Bell NGO Chairman--------------

END.
 
In 1940 the French, under Petain, "defended the continued existence" of what he held dear, the territorial integrity of France, by surrendering it. Yet the facts showed that believing it was a fight that could not be won. Yet the facts proved that belief was wrong. The fight would have been won.

As as late as 23:59 on 23 February 2020 what BASC also called the facts proved that the calls for a ban on lead are wrong. And like Petain they have given into panic. Again what of this £8M "fighting fund"? What is the point of it? There will soon be nothing left to use any of it to defend.

Heck! We haven't even yet agreed a trade deal with the EU so this "European legislation is, in all likelihood, going to outlaw lead in food products - therefore the European market for British Game will disappear" is a nonsense argument as regardless of it has lead in it, or not, there may in any case be no European market!

It is all premature and based on circumstances that may not then exist. As my Uncle Bill told me as a young boy of thirteen from his experience of riding to hounds with the Quorn in the 1930s and the time of the renowned George Barker this. You don't take your fences until you reach them.

The reality however is that lead shot will be the death knell of game being sold in supermarkets. Steel shot means broken teeth and broken teeth means that for the sake of a £4.50 dressed pheasant there's exposure to a £1500 "No Claim No Fee" action. No supermarket will continue that risk once the claims start coming as they will.
 
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kes said:
If this is true its for ALL live quarry shooting. Game days, pigeon, shooting corvids, squirrels, foxes etc.
BASC have proved that they and the others who are supposed to speak for shooting are disingenuous. No sound evidence - no change, no doubt we will be treated to an explanation of why they (and the others) have found the 'evidence' so overwhelming and incontrovertible.

I hesitate to say I told you so - but - I told you so.
I hope all current BASC members are interested in their countryside pursuits enough to ask WHY, and then to withdraw their subscriptions.
Money talks and obligation and conscience walk. Disgrace.
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I’m with BASC but based on this, assuming it all check out, I’d consider leaving BASC. Any recommendations out there for a replacement?
 
Stick your ££££ Under the bed , then at least you will know your money is doing nothing to prevent our sporting demise ! unlike what we pay for now , I see 10yrs left then even spud guns will be banned ! let alone the bow and arrow :doh: Just may be we might be able to keep the throwing stick ???
 
Roestalker39 said:
What continues to blow my mind is the die hard basc members will defend basc on this and keep handing over thier subs ....
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Are you nitand member of any of the other organisations then?
Island said:
There is also a conspicuous lack of comments about the fact that the statement is jointly issued by the GWCT, the BGA, the CA, the CLA, the Moorland Association, the NGO, Scottish and Land Estates and SACS..........but I suppose that bringing that up would somewhat blunt the trendy anti-BASC sentiment.

The wilful misinterpretation of this statement is almost painful to read. "BASC have agreed a ban" - no they haven't. Our COLLECTIVE countryside organisations have requested from their members a voluntary moratorium on the use of lead and single-use plastics. Something that WILL happen eventually, no matter how much the collected members of online shooting forums cry about it. This, I suspect, is something that everyone is patently aware of, but chooses to ignore so that they can have a good online moan. The fact that the organisations are jumping ahead of the game, and in doing so attempting to show the shooting fraternity in a good light to the general public (who couldn't give a tinker's cuss about the actual science behind it all), is irrelevant to those that will use any stick to beat a particular organisation.

I stalk, I shoot driven and walked-up game, I flight and roost pigeons, I flight geese and ducks, I coach people in the use of shotguns, I am actively involved in the organisation and hosting of driven shoots A voluntary moratorium on lead, whilst inconvenient, is hardly going to stop me undertaking my hobbies. When demand for lead ammunition falls the manufacturers will VERY quickly fill the gaps with ever increasingly efficient alternatives. That is, quite simply, how businesses work. If they don't, they will not survive.

I shall now sit back and await the responses which ignore the actual body of my post, and accuse me of being "nothing but a pro-BASC lackey". I even have a list of those that I am expecting pass judgement first.....
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completey agree with above post :thumb:
 
I will be looking at the CPSA and also the Country Cover Club. I renewed with SACS on 31 December 2019. I will NOT be renewing with them again.

Country Sports Insurance | Country Cover Club | UK

Country Cover Club is a leading provider of recreational country sports insurance in the UK. C³ Insurance provides £12 Million Public Liability insurance, £10,000 Personal Accident cover and £100,000 Legal cover for a wide range of Country Sports across the UK and Republic of Ireland. Join C³...
www.ccc3.co.uk www.ccc3.co.uk
 
TomT3 said:
Are you nitand member of any of the other organisations then?

completey agree with above post :thumb:
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I assume you mean am I a member of any other organisation ? Yes I am and I’ll be writing to them , you see I did say earlier in this thread that we’ve been let down by all our orgs but none quite as spectacularly or as regularly as “ the voice “
 
I simply wonder how all the orgs members will manage the personal transition from using lead to using 'sustainable alternatives'. i will stock up and hope to use it before the voluntary transition. Never let it be said that BASC or any of the others listen to their members, or to the science.
I cant find any justification for this precipitate change of heart - dont try and tell me Swift was right in anything.
This is not 'new thinking', its flawed thinking. Why would any environmentalist applaud going lead free or recycled plastic cases - they dont eat game and will ridicule attempts to 'popularise' shooting.
I will just stick to insurance and recommend everyone else does the same - I can do without being guided and represented by these people who I now regard with contempt.
 
Here's what Browning say about steel shot on their current website.

Can I shoot steel shot in my Browning shotgun?
3. DO NO USE ANY STEEL SHOT LOADS:
The Belgian-made A-5, Superposed, Leige, and other Belgian Over/Under models, Double Automatic, American-made A-5 and all other models not listed in category 1 or 2. Note: Belgian Auto-5 barrels are interchangeable with the new Invector barrels which are made in Japan. With this new Invector barrel installed on the Belgian-made Auto-5 receiver, steel shot loads can be used.
 
enfieldspares said:
I will be looking at the CPSA and also the Country Cover Club. I renewed with SACS on 31 December 2019. I will NOT be renewing with them again.

Country Sports Insurance | Country Cover Club | UK

Country Cover Club is a leading provider of recreational country sports insurance in the UK. C³ Insurance provides £12 Million Public Liability insurance, £10,000 Personal Accident cover and £100,000 Legal cover for a wide range of Country Sports across the UK and Republic of Ireland. Join C³...
www.ccc3.co.uk www.ccc3.co.uk
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Probably be with you ES. :tiphat:
 
One select piece of disingenuous nonse on the BASC site is this:

Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives.
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and

Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.
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For if the EU can have a ban on USA chlorine washed chicken and USA beef over medicated on anti-biotics yet at the same time allow access to the EU to US non-chlorine washed chicken and US non over-medicated beef then this is clear that any such ban would not be a blanket ban on all UK game but just UK game shot with lead. So surely it is for the individual shoot to decide if it wants to continue to use lead and the individual game dealer to decide whether he or she wishes to take such product.

Again that retailers are "increasingly asking for" is a similar tactic of connecting a big lie to a small truth. Not all edible game is sold to retailers and yet why should those many shoots were it is not be then subject to these restrictions on using lead shot?

Finally as we know the game dealers of Europe and the UK will now be calling out for oven ready crows, jays and magpies (shot with non lead shot) to sell to customers to eat. So why does the announcement today call on an end to lead shot for corvids, squirrels and foxes?
 
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Roestalker39 said:
I assume you mean am I a member of any other organisation ? Yes I am and I’ll be writing to them , you see I did say earlier in this thread that we’ve been let down by all our orgs but none quite as spectacularly or as regularly as “ the voice “
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Good on you please share your response if you receive one.
 
I've written this to, one of the shooting magazines:

Dear Editor,

As a student of International History and Politics at Leeds University back in the late 1970s I was taught many things. One was the classic propaganda technique of the small truth and the big lie.

That is you tell a small truth and follow it with a big lie. People know that the truth is true....you can prove it...so what follows that is also said must also be true.

Reading today's statement on the BASC website and their FAQs reminded me of those West Yorkshire days. All the elements were there. That "small truth" not once but three times in fact. To support the big lie that it is necessary to end the use of lead on all shoots, by all shooters and for all quarry species edible and non edible.

Here:

1) Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation.

And

2) Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives.

Then

3) Additionally, lead has been progressively removed from other substances, such as petrol and paint.

All true to a great or lesser extent and yet all do not make true the "big lie" that lead shot as a means to kill live quarry must fall.

1) Nobody knows what trade deal we will get post-Brexit. Boris Johnson doesn't. Michael Gove doesn't. Yet apparently BASC does? The EU may ban all British poultry and game regardless of if it has been shot with lead or non-lead so unless there is a crystal ball at Marford Mill it is speculation and navel gazing.

And in any case this is disingenuous. For if the EU can have a ban on USA chlorine washed chicken yet at the same time allow access to the EU to US non-chlorine washed chicken then this is clear that any such EU ban might not be a blanket ban at all UK game but just a ban on UK game shot with lead.

2) Surely it is for the individual shoot to decide if it wants to limit its outlets its surplus shot game and for it to continue to use lead if it does not mind that or as many do share it all with no surplus to sell between guns, beaters and pickers up?

Not all edible game is sold to retailers and yet why should those many shoots were it is not be then subject to these restrictions on using lead shot? Just as it is for the individual game dealer to decide whether he or she wishes to take such product or not take such product?

3) Paint and petrol. And a so the ban on lead in cartridges is justified? BASC shame on you! And those other organisations that have clung to its coat tails. Doctor Goebbels would truly have been proud of this...the classic small truth and big lie! Lead in paint and petrol is harmful yes. So therefore we must ban lead in shot gun cartridges?

Lead in petrol is air borne as I think a vapour or a gas containing microscopic particles that could be and were inhaled. I do not know the physics nor the chemistry of it but I do know that what comes out car exhaust pipe is not at all remotely the the same as a the two hundred and seventy small round balls of solid metal in an ounce load of English number six.

And finally for nearly five years from 2015 to 2019 I both worked and lived in France. Where as we all know the game dealers of Europe were always calling out for oven ready crows, jays and magpies to sell to customers to eat. And yet the the announcement today call on an end to lead shot for such corvids, and for squirrels and fors foxes?

It is utter and total cant.
 
So if anyone is down at their local scrap dealers and sees an mri scanner, best snap it up. Then shot game can be de steeled. Sorted!
 
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