BMH Tracking Day Scotland

[barongcw]

Now I know this is lighthearted banter, but I am in the position of having met Baron, Widu and 6p. I even refer to Wolverine as a mate, but still cannot understand what he is saying half the time...

What cracks me up is the winding up that goes on here. you all have your own subtle ways (some not so) of doing it!

What I do know is that you would all be amazed at the commonality in your thoughts on the matter of training a dog for deer! Obviously not every aspect of the topic will be agreed on, but that is a good thing because everyone brings something different to the table for discussion.

I think it will be a hoot when we are all in the same room along with whoever else wants to join us, to talk dogs, deer and training over a dram!

You are certainly right there.

My thinking is quite simple. during the 2 days I am sure a lot of teaching and discussions on training deer dogs will take place. All for free.

What I am trying to establish is if there is an interest in organising for people who think they have a "fully trained deer hound" a trail to test that assumption.

 

[Wolverine]

Now 6pointer I know the BMH tests,I was joking when I said a 6month old pup.
Baron,tests IMO are the way to go to take UK dogs to a standard that's required,I believe that the handlers need testing too,we,I know,are in agreement here and you also know IMO that most dogs and handlers in the UK would fail such a test
Fine way to get a few £50 though

 

[6pointer]

That depends on what you call a deer dog Baron and what others call a deer dog. We have been using deer dogs in this country to great effect for many many years and have shaped our dogs in a way that suits our own purpose. But that dose not mean they are not good deer dogs because they do not follow a set criteria that they neither know or have been taught. I would suggest if you want to encourage the European way then you will need to educate deer stalkers here of the benefits of having a dog trained in such away. Once a real training program has been established and people are training there dogs to this program only then can you have ability test. Like i said i will do your test if your dog can do mine this was not to be patronising but to say my old dog has been trained to suit his environment and that might not suit your dog.

David

 

[barongcw]

That depends on what you call a deer dog Baron and what others call a deer dog. We have been using deer dogs in this country to great effect for many many years and have shaped our dogs in a way that suits our own purpose. But that dose not mean they are not good deer dogs because they do not follow a set criteria that they neither know or have been taught. I would suggest if you want to encourage the European way then you will need to educate deer stalkers here of the benefits of having a dog trained in such away. Once a real training program has been established and people are training there dogs to this program only then can you have ability test. Like i said i will do your test if your dog can do mine this was not to be patronising but to say my old dog has been trained to suit his environment and that might not suit your dog.

David

Suggest we talk after the weekend. Could be interesting.

As I have said a few times before anybody can train any dog the way he likes but can that dog pass a general test? There are few takers at present.

And by the way, they are not my tests but used for about 100 years by thousands of trackers on the continent. More likely than not ten of thousands.

As long as the BDS and or the other Societies have not set up nationwide training programmes and tests I suggest we use the continental ones. They work and that is the key.

 

[6pointer]

Baron the weekend is to introduce the lads who are interested to tracking and if there is enough interest on the day and the lads enjoy them selves then the SLDG will i hope make this an annual event. It will i hope be put to the the lads in the class room what would be expected of there dogs in the FUTURE should they wish to test there dogs to a standard ( yet to be writen). Like i said one step at a time. I am also hopeing that Rudy starts his training weekends so that interested party,s can go and learn. May i add what you have writen down is not what the BMH or the english part of the society have writen as tests,
I hope that the ones who have the trained dogs in what would be discribed as the eroupean way are willing to pass on there knowlage and not turn it into a my dog is beter than your competition because there will be no takes and the attempt to bring tracking dogs here to train will fail.

Just my opinion

David

 

[barongcw]

Baron the weekend is to introduce the lads who are interested to tracking and if there is enough interest on the day and the lads enjoy them selves then the SLDG will i hope make this an annual event. It will i hope be put to the the lads in the class room what would be expected of there dogs in the FUTURE should they wish to test there dogs to a standard ( yet to be writen). Like i said one step at a time. I am also hopeing that Rudy starts his training weekends so that interested party,s can go and learn. May i add what you have writen down is not what the BMH or the english part of the society have writen as tests,
I hope that the ones who have the trained dogs in what would be discribed as the eroupean way are willing to pass on there knowlage and not turn it into a my dog is beter than your competition because there will be no takes and the attempt to bring tracking dogs here to train will fail.

Just my opinion

David

As I have said before, it is not a competition but an excercise to see how good your hound is.

 

[stone]

As I have said before, it is not a competition but an excercise to see how good your hound is.

Aahh
You mean an elite group for hounds that can...!!
But if not enough entries you are prepared to allow other non breeds To keep the dream alive
yes / no??

 

[Rudi]

Very good discution , but , i think important is to learn - what is a deer dog - how to work with it - what have i to do - how to put trails - how to observer the dog . After this you can have some test . And think there is no winner , every dog can fall and be next day champion . Learn to put trails , learn to observ . It is a proces that takes more than one year , and again than you can talk about trail over 1 km overnight . I would love the discutions during a course , you will learn from them .
Think about this most off you have young dogs , learn them step by step . There is plenty off time .As we say here walk first then run . Believe me .

 

[6pointer]

Thanks Rudi it show that the drum about education is the correct way to go. I am willing to learn and that is why i have went to the effort of organising a day to get lads together and talk in a hopefully entertaining way. I do know that the lads here will understand George but i doubt he will understand them lol.
Stone i can assure you that there is no discrimination in our day we have all colors and all sizes we even have Blacks pats.

 

[stone]

Davie
I hav no doubt you will not discriminate
Rudi/ Georges
Is this the same
Rudi
I ask what other dogs do you appreciate that can make it as a deer dog??

 

[Wolverine]

Davie
I hav no doubt you will not discriminate
Rudi/ Georges
Is this the same
Rudi
I ask what other dogs do you appreciate that can make it as a deer dog??

Now Stone,let's look at this logically,some dogs in the UK can make the grade but like I say logically.
HS/BGS are better deer dogs than our breeds because they've more experience at the work than ANY UK breed.
Certain breeds can do the job but it is handler knowledge that makes a huge difference.
As for our breeds,here it is lucky to get a lab that loves deer,in a couple of generations I have noticed a huge difference in what I term "deeriness"the love of working deer,I must also say I started with a lab that loved deer in the first place,not all do,neither do GWPs,this is where the luck comes in!
HS/BGS you would be very unlucky if these breeds didn't love working deer,this is the difference that I feel makes them more deer orientated,other breeds can do the job but these are "SPECIALIST" tracking dogs,much like my labs are as I work them to nothing else,nothing except the odd fox.
I shall continue with my labs but I'll also get a specialist as well,why?Because I can and I want one.
My labs will not do verweisen and aren't as vocal as one of these hounds,2 good reasons to try them out me thinks
95% of dog breeds in the UK aren't as good as these hounds at deer,95%of the dogs of normal gundog strains aren't as good as these dogs at deer!
Why,handler or dog,or a combination???

 

[6pointer]

George for me you hit the nial on the head when you say.

ANY UK breed.
Certain breeds can do the job but it is handler knowledge that makes a huge difference

You can get a very good remington if your lucky but your unlucky if your SAKO dont shoot well out the box.

But some people with hard work and a lot of effort will get that clunky old remmy to shoot .

Dogs are the same.

 

[widu]

Hello All. What is a tracking dog, what should it be able to do that makes it a specialist.
1. Follow a trail many hours old.
2. Have the ability-tenacity , or single mindeness ,to stay one that scent no matter what.
3. Have bravery and inteligence, (not to be confused with, blind uncontrold aggression).
4. Phisical strength, suitable physique, and extreme fitness .
5. Incredible, undivided loyalty to it's handler , ( A life saver when working on wounded Boar)
These few points will rule out the use, of dogs in the gundog / terrier's class, as a serrious aplicant, into the Job/ Role of the specialist tracking, Hound, Simple, TCH, Tch!!!.
Regards WIDU.
TO STRIVE, TO SEEK, TO FIND , AND NEVER TO YIELD.

 

[6pointer]

So what do you want for that statement Wido a medal or a chest to pin it on. The question was if i remember from Baron a deer dog. It also dose not matter if your dog can do what ever is asked if your dog dose not know the set criteria. Even more important if the handler of the dogs dose not know it.
If you only ever speak to a child in clicks that is all the child will know. Widu you either want an elitist groups of guys who can compare there dogs or you want to improve the working ability of the dogs in this country by training the owns in new areas not used often in this country.
You still have time to make your way up here for 2 pm to help George out.

 

[Gazza]

Seems like we are all tied up in wanting to run tests and backing your dog to the tune of £50 to prove it. Anybody out there actually have the experience, knowledge and availablity to offer assistance in chosing a pup of suitable breeding and then training the handler and dog to achieve the standards being talked about. Are there any dogs in this country that our continental friends would want in their kennel? Going back many years when I did working trials with GSDs I had many contacts who could assist with pup choice, all aspects of training, training days etc all within a relatively short distance. Going onto gundogs there are clubs up and down the country all with there expert members willing to help the novice bring out the best in themselves and their dog.
Setting up a test to challenge a dog and handler to show its worth is easy compared to training the handler and dog to achieve that standard. Is there anybody out there who can take up that challenge and has the knowledge and experience to succeed.

 

[barongcw]

Seems like we are all tied up in wanting to run tests and backing your dog to the tune of £50 to prove it. Anybody out there actually have the experience, knowledge and availablity to offer assistance in chosing a pup of suitable breeding and then training the handler and dog to achieve the standards being talked about. Are there any dogs in this country that our continental friends would want in their kennel? Going back many years when I did working trials with GSDs I had many contacts who could assist with pup choice, all aspects of training, training days etc all within a relatively short distance. Going onto gundogs there are clubs up and down the country all with there expert members willing to help the novice bring out the best in themselves and their dog.
Setting up a test to challenge a dog and handler to show its worth is easy compared to training the handler and dog to achieve that standard. Is there anybody out there who can take up that challenge and has the knowledge and experience to succeed.

Now that are what I call good questions. Let me try to answer them.

1 The £ 50 is meant to stop time wasters. You get it all back when you complete
2 As far as BMH and HS goes the answer is yes. You might ask Jamross. Do not know about the other breeds.
3 Yes, there are a few, less than 10 I guess. I talk only about BMH and HS's.
4 Agree setting up a test is much easier. It was meant to see if there were any of the famous "fully trained" around that would like an independant opinion.
5 You cannot expect any individual or even a small group to set up training over the whole of the UK. That in my view is the job of the BDS. Up till now I have heart very little from them.

Unless I have missed something, there are up till know only 2 people who said they might like to try.

 

[Gazza]

Baron, Within the uk is there anybody who would be willing to give say a weekend to assist with the training and developing of handlers and their scent hounds. I am fairly certain that if there was such a person(s) there is sufficient BMH and HS owners who would gladly pay a reasonable amount to attend a constructive and educational event. We must learn to walk before we run.
I think if we wait for the BDS you will wait a very long time.

 

[barongcw]

Baron, Within the uk is there anybody who would be willing to give say a weekend to assist with the training and developing of handlers and their scent hounds. I am fairly certain that if there was such a person(s) there is sufficient BMH and HS owners who would gladly pay a reasonable amount to attend a constructive and educational event. We must learn to walk before we run.
I think if we wait for the BDS you will wait a very long time.

Yes, I would be quite happy to do that backed up by Rudi.

The one proviso is that I live in Dorset so please do not organise it near John o Groats. Also whilst I know a bit about HS and their cousins the BMH I know nothing about other breeds like GWP and the like.

Have not yet talked in detail with Jamross but we could do something before/during or after his Kelso Fair.

Would not charge you anything providing you got at least 8 people with BMH/HS together.

 

[stone]

Now Stone,let's look at this logically,some dogs in the UK can make the grade but like I say logically.
HS/BGS are better deer dogs than our breeds because they've more experience at the work than ANY UK breed.
Certain breeds can do the job but it is handler knowledge that makes a huge difference.
As for our breeds,here it is lucky to get a lab that loves deer,in a couple of generations I have noticed a huge difference in what I term "deeriness"the love of working deer,I must also say I started with a lab that loved deer in the first place,not all do,neither do GWPs,this is where the luck comes in!
HS/BGS you would be very unlucky if these breeds didn't love working deer,this is the difference that I feel makes them more deer orientated,other breeds can do the job but these are "SPECIALIST" tracking dogs,much like my labs are as I work them to nothing else,nothing except the odd fox.
I shall continue with my labs but I'll also get a specialist as well,why?Because I can and I want one.
My labs will not do verweisen and aren't as vocal as one of these hounds,2 good reasons to try them out me thinks
95% of dog breeds in the UK aren't as good as these hounds at deer,95%of the dogs of normal gundog strains aren't as good as these dogs at deer!
Why,handler or dog,or a combination???

Balanced and honest as ever
And to be honest my own train of thought
I am considering a hound but just not sure which or if I hav the work for one to justify getting such a dog

 

[stone]

Hello All. What is a tracking dog, what should it be able to do that makes it a specialist.
1. Follow a trail many hours old.
2. Have the ability-tenacity , or single mindeness ,to stay one that scent no matter what.
3. Have bravery and inteligence, (not to be confused with, blind uncontrold aggression).
4. Phisical strength, suitable physique, and extreme fitness .
5. Incredible, undivided loyalty to it's handler , ( A life saver when working on wounded Boar)
These few points will rule out the use, of dogs in the gundog / terrier's class, as a serrious aplicant, into the Job/ Role of the specialist tracking, Hound, Simple, TCH, Tch!!!.
Regards WIDU.
TO STRIVE, TO SEEK, TO FIND , AND NEVER TO YIELD.

another insight that is easy to understand