Calf Size - Age

[Midlandstalker2024]

Morning Folks,

New enough to the game and still trying to learn. Trying to determine if these are early spring calves or late previous season calves.

Just wondering if anyone could shed some light on this topic for me. One of my permissions which stocks some reds, Ive noticed huge differences between calves throughout the summer and spring. Last year I seen some very small (lamb sized) calves even in mid July, but this year I’ve noticed a lot of well grown but still with spots. I’m trying to figure out if this is a case these larger calves are from late last season and the hind has still to drop or are these actually early this year calves ?

 

[Heym SR20]

It takes time to really understand how deer grow and work. This years youngsters will be spotted when born. There is quite a variation in time as to when most calves and fawns are born, and the size of the newborn and how well they grow is very very much a function of the condition of the mother and the availability of food. You can get calves born quite late in the year - probably not pregnant from their first oestrous at start of the rut, but got covered later on.
Calves that are from the previous year will 2/3 to 3/4 the size of mother, indeed can be almost the same size if conditions had been good.

This year we have had a warm dry spring, so calves, lambs etc are all doing well with good early fresh grazing and leaf. So youngsters born this year will be doing well.

Last year was a very wet and cold spring with not much growing. The deer really struggled. I have noticed a big drop in numbers of yearling Roe on the grounds I look after.

In the old days stalkers would focus their cull on the hinds with poor and small calves. For some reason the mother is not doing well, not getting enough nutrition, not producing enough milk etc so she and her calves would be first on the cull list. This is basic herd management.

With current day practice, much of this planned culling has gone out of the window and focus is just on numbers.

 

[Midlandstalker2024]

It takes time to really understand how deer grow and work. This years youngsters will be spotted when born. There is quite a variation in time as to when most calves and fawns are born, and the size of the newborn and how well they grow is very very much a function of the condition of the mother and the availability of food. You can get calves born quite late in the year - probably not pregnant from their first oestrous at start of the rut, but got covered later on.
Calves that are from the previous year will 2/3 to 3/4 the size of mother, indeed can be almost the same size if conditions had been good.

This year we have had a warm dry spring, so calves, lambs etc are all doing well with good early fresh grazing and leaf. So youngsters born this year will be doing well.

Last year was a very wet and cold spring with not much growing. The deer really struggled. I have noticed a big drop in numbers of yearling Roe on the grounds I look after.

In the old days stalkers would focus their cull on the hinds with poor and small calves. For some reason the mother is not doing well, not getting enough nutrition, not producing enough milk etc so she and her calves would be first on the cull list. This is basic herd management.

With current day practice, much of this planned culling has gone out of the window and focus is just on numbers.

Thanks. Just been trying to figure out numbers on the land to come up with some idea of cull numbers for this year.

Another probably question- at what age would stag calves generally start developing antlers ?

 

[Leec6.5]

Deer are aged as - young, middle aged, late middle aged and old

Age in years is a human thing and not relevant to deer

So answer your question, the calf is young.

 

[Midlandstalker2024]

Deer are aged as - young, middle aged, late middle aged and old

Age in years is a human thing and not relevant to deer

So answer your question, the calf is young.

Thanks, wasn’t generally looking for age in years. I was trying to determine numbers on the ground and if this was a last year calf and the hind was potentially still to drop a calf or this was her calf for the year.

Thinking was this potentially another calf to drop this year and the potential for this calf if it was a last years animal that it could be potentially bred this coming rut

 

[Leec6.5]

Thanks, wasn’t generally looking for age in years. I was trying to determine numbers on the ground and if this was a last year calf and the hind was potentially still to drop a calf or this was her calf for the year.

Thinking was this potentially another calf to drop this year and the potential for this calf if it was a last years animal that it could be potentially bred this coming rut

If that was one of last years, it should have been shot last year, I take it the ground is new to you?

A few words of wisdom from someone how has managed lowland reds for over 15 years.

Thrash them, they are a hole in the bottom of a bottle you will never find the bottom of!

You will see if you poke at them, taking 1 or 2 does no good, I’ve shot them on sight when in season and I’m still shooting the same number as I did every year from when I took the land on.

Also make sure you kitted out to handle them, if your not you’ll learn the hard way.

 

[Heym SR20]

Thanks. Just been trying to figure out numbers on the land to come up with some idea of cull numbers for this year.

Another probably question- at what age would stag calves generally start developing antlers ?

They will start developing in their first winter. Yearlings generally have small spikes in their first full year. With something that looks more like an antler in their second full year. You don’t really get “proper” antlers until their 3rd or fourth set and they are fully mature.

But it really does depend on body condition. Again I tend to shoot youngsters that are in poor condition. We scruffy little yearlings don’t grow into good adults. But I tend to leave anything that looks reasonably good, and let them grow on for another year.

By this stage if female they will have calved, or if male will have antlers. If it has produced a good calf, it stays, and if it is good in the body with a reasonable head, it again stays.

With a cull you need to balance age and herd structure. Take out the old beyond breeding age males and females, take out those that are not doing well, and then take a few of the good animals.

Typically you need to take 20 to 30% of the population to keep numbers stable.

But you also need to consider food availability. If the deer are small, in poor condition, lots of ticks, hard browse lines in the woods you are probably over populated. If the deer are in fit and healthy, decent carcass weight and woodlands don’t show hard browse lines you probably have a sustainable population that the land can support.

 

[75]

That’s not one of this year’s calves. This years are probably still tucked up in cover or if visible will be very obviously very young!

 

[Leec6.5]

They will start developing in their first winter. Yearlings generally have small spikes in their first full year. With something that looks more like an antler in their second full year. You don’t really get “proper” antlers until their 3rd or fourth set and they are fully mature.

But it really does depend on body condition. Again I tend to shoot youngsters that are in poor condition. We scruffy little yearlings don’t grow into good adults. But I tend to leave anything that looks reasonably good, and let them grow on for another year.

By this stage if female they will have calved, or if male will have antlers. If it has produced a good calf, it stays, and if it is good in the body with a reasonable head, it again stays.

With a cull you need to balance age and herd structure. Take out the old beyond breeding age males and females, take out those that are not doing well, and then take a few of the good animals.

Typically you need to take 20 to 30% of the population to keep numbers stable.

But you also need to consider food availability. If the deer are small, in poor condition, lots of ticks, hard browse lines in the woods you are probably over populated. If the deer are in fit and healthy, decent carcass weight and woodlands don’t show hard browse lines you probably have a sustainable population that the land can support.

At 20-30% your pi$$ing in the wind and getting wet, making next year 10 times harder!

You want to be heading for 50% for numbers to stand still, 60% plus to reduce numbers.

Personally I’ve never managed to hit 60% shooting on sight!

But one problem you are forgetting, make sure you can get shot of the carcasses, if you can’t no point in shooting them.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

If that was one of last years, it should have been shot last year, I take it the ground is new to you?

A few words of wisdom from someone how has managed lowland reds for over 15 years.

Thrash them, they are a hole in the bottom of a bottle you will never find the bottom of!

You will see if you poke at them, taking 1 or 2 does no good, I’ve shot them on sight when in season and I’m still shooting the same number as I did every year from when I took the land on.

Also make sure you kitted out to handle them, if your not you’ll learn the hard way.

Firstly Deer are aged in whatever criteria the manager wants to age them in. If managing for trophies then simply aging to young, middle age and old isn’t going to cut it. Kudos to the OP for trying to further their understanding of the deer they are managing.

Secondly, the red deer on your ground may be a bottomless pit that you never get to the bottom of, but there is no saying that this is the case everywhere. I know of red deer populations in England that are carefully managed as to not get out of control but that could easily be shot out in two seasons if desired. It is a common occurrence now that deer managers across the country think that every other peice of ground is just like theirs.[/QUOTE]

 

[Happy stalker]

At 20-30% your pi$$ing in the wind and getting wet, making next year 10 times harder!

The 20-30% is a good starting point for up here on the open hill, working on a 30% recruitment reduction to maintain a stable number which again depends on the food availability, your number could be drastically reduced over a bad winter if to many good animals are shot and the poorer ones left to stave which is obviously poor deer management

 

[Sol]

No ones mentioned it yet but "late born" fawns in red deer Isn't the most uncommon thing If the deer are thriving regarding food the young 1 1/2 females can hit the weight too keep a calf to term.

Red deer usually drop calves in May/June (235 days-ish) but If there bred say December 1st your looking at calves dropping late July still plenty warm enough to pack on pounds before fall hits, but biologically at such a disadvantage to get through the winter, but if moms healthy enough and the winters mild Is possible for them to get through.

it would be pretty apparent this time of year at how much smaller they are, I would say that's the case with the one above I cant see that deer being heavy.

 

[Leec6.5]

Firstly Deer are aged in whatever criteria the manager wants to age them in. If managing for trophies then simply aging to young, middle age and old isn’t going to cut it. Kudos to the OP for trying to further their understanding of the deer they are managing.

Secondly, the red deer on your ground may be a bottomless pit that you never get to the bottom of, but there is no saying that this is the case everywhere. I know of red deer populations in England that are carefully managed as to not get out of control but that could easily be shot out in two seasons if desired. It is a common occurrence now that deer managers across the country think that every other peice of ground is just like theirs.

I think I best hit the button before I get banned again

 

[RCS Deer Management]

I think I best hit the button before I get banned again

You could just try replying using logic and well thought out replies. Different opinions don’t have to result in an argument and don’t have to result in you getting banned if you can respond like an adult?

 

[Leec6.5]

You could just try replying using logic and well thought out replies. Different opinions don’t have to result in an argument and don’t have to result in you getting banned if you can respond like an adult?

I’ve been killing deer too long for diplomacy, you can fanny about being politically correct if you wish but your wasting your time educating me

 

[Happy stalker]

Firstly Deer are aged in whatever criteria the manager wants to age them in. If managing for trophies then simply aging to young, middle age and old isn’t going to cut it. Kudos to the OP for trying to further their understanding of the deer they are managing.

Secondly, the red deer on your ground may be a bottomless pit that you never get to the bottom of, but there is no saying that this is the case everywhere. I know of red deer populations in England that are carefully managed as to not get out of control but that could easily be shot out in two seasons if desired. It is a common occurrence now that deer managers across the country think that every other peice of ground is just like theirs.

[/QUOTE]
Yip, it’s not a one size fits all, what works for one will not necessarily work for someone else

 

[RCS Deer Management]

I’ve been killing deer too long for diplomacy, you can fanny about being politically correct if you wish but your wasting your time educating me

I hope that I never get to the stage where I think that I know everything.

 

[Sheamus]

Deer on the grounds where I manage are as follows, young, middle aged and old..
I don't have clients to explain things too or complicate matters.
If a young Deer is born in June or even late August it's still young,lol.
Keep things simple and not complicate matters just for the sake of it.
But if you like to identify by exact age then carry on..

 

[Leec6.5]

Deer on the grounds where I manage are as follows, young, middle aged and old..
I don't have clients to explain things too or complicate matters.
If a young Deer is born in June or even late August it's still young,lol.
Keep things simple and not complicate matters just for the sake of it.
But if you like to identify by exact age then carry on..

Perfect and as it should be

 

[75]

Deer on the grounds where I manage are as follows, young, middle aged and old..
I don't have clients to explain things too or complicate matters.
If a young Deer is born in June or even late August it's still young,lol.
Keep things simple and not complicate matters just for the sake of it.
But if you like to identify by exact age then carry on..

Ditto. Other than the obvious stuff (calf / knobber / spiker etc) I find deer on the hoof very hard to age with accuracy and I'd go as far as to suggest anyone claiming to be able to do so is being a little overly confident in their ability. There are so many environmental factors at play which influence growth rates and size. Plus factor in multiple animals moving around in poor light or in cover and at distance... Now is that a 4 year old hind or a 5 year old?

Young, middle aged and old works just fine for me too.