Camo or No?

[Heym SR20]

I really don’t camo makes any difference for deer stalking whether its the rifle or the hunter. Far far more important is the lack of movement and smell.

Camouflage is much more required for military snipers where you have an enemy that is very used to detecting rifle shaped objects and is using powerful optics etc.

However I do recall one wildfowler out on the foreshore, put his camouflaged semi auto down in the sedge / samphire, waded out a few yards to sort out his decoys and then spend a good few minutes searching for his gun.

Personally I am not a great fan of sporting rifles looking like military machine guns - whilst I can see the utility of pistol gripped chassis type rifles with bipods, to the uninitiated (ie the general public) they just look like to sort of kit used by paramilitaries and call for unwanted attention.

- edit - I started this post whilst #60 was being posted. Perhaps I was watching @old 30-06

 

[Tim.243]

I really don’t camo makes any difference for deer stalking whether its the rifle or the hunter. Far far more important is the lack of movement and smell.

Camouflage is much more required for military snipers where you have an enemy that is very used to detecting rifle shaped objects and is using powerful optics etc.

However I do recall one wildfowler out on the foreshore, put his camouflaged semi auto down in the sedge / samphire, waded out a few yards to sort out his decoys and then spend a good few minutes searching for his gun.

Personally I am not a great fan of sporting rifles looking like military machine guns - whilst I can see the utility of pistol gripped chassis type rifles with bipods, to the uninitiated (ie the general public) they just look like to sort of kit used by paramilitaries and call for unwanted attention.

- edit - I started this post whilst #60 was being posted. Perhaps I was watching @old30-06

A tad off subject but re the General public our ex chairman of the wildfowling club raised the very good point as to put the dead ducks in your bag not on a carrier on the out side as your gun is in the slip on the sea wall so put the ducks away.

 

[Heym SR20]

A decent length of pull is more important than anything else. Being 6ft was considered tall 50 odd years ago. It’s no longer tall, its pretty average.

Most American rifles I have looked at have short stocks - I am 6ft and too short for me.

At least have readily available spacers - preferably in the box.

Adjustable combs may be great for some. They just look flimsy to me. Instead make a decent fixed comb that is suitable for modern scope preferences - a sightline that is 2” above the bore to accommodate 50 and 56mm objective lenses.

Or if you adjustability just make a series of higher combs that screw on.

Adjustable stocks where the comb just floats above the stock just catch on branches clothing etc when used in the field.

 

[Heym SR20]

And make sure that bolt handles are on the left hand side and cheek pieces are on the right hand side.

The vast majority of gunmakers make the vast majority of their guns fundamentally wrong with the bolt handles on the right and cheek pieces on the left. These are very irritating and uncomfortable to use. Especially if there is a sharp roll over cheek piece.

 

[scotch_egg]

Not bothered either way about a cammo finish until it fades away (Browning) or the soft grip inserts until they melt (Berretta). Wouldn't let it put me off buying a rifle though.

Or the soft touch rubs off the Sako carbon rifles sticks. Truly terrible finish on such an expensive rifle.

 

[Wmjas]

I for one don’t mind a camo stock but agree it’s more about fit and finish (I.e. adjustability) than looks. I have 1 wooden stocked rifle left and the rest are now all carbon fibre and synthetic. I don’t like the look of l straight cf stocks though, to the point where I’ve spray painted or sponge dipped most of mine in some form to break it up but it’s mostly personal rather than functional.

One thing that does really grind my gears is the Blaser habit of only allowing certain colours/camo option on the top end stocks, only on stocks without thumbholes or stock x can have a cheek riser but only in y colour etc. I would love to be able to buy the rifle I wanted in the colour I wanted but am forced to either diy colour or fit aftermarket fittings (like cheek risers) to the stock I wanted in a particular colour.

 

[RescueMe0007]

We’ve seen a move towards disruptive patterned guns by tikka, Blaser, ourselves (Weatherby) etc… but what are everyone’s thoughts? Is this just an American/European fad or do subtle disruption patterns have a place?

Drab colours generally seem to work as well as camo, many would argue that movement is the main giveaway, but some have speculated that some deer species may see colour… we’re really interested to know what the U.K. market wants in terms of colour schemes on rifles?

View attachment 363369

I understand that deer see quite differently to us humans. The rods and cones in their eyes are evolved to make the most of poor light conditions, as a result their sensitivity to colour is quite different. Studies strongly suggest that deer are significantly colour blind in the red/green spectrum, that is they can't differentiate between these colours. They do pick up the blue/yellow colours much better. As a prey animal their eyes are more toward the sides of their head to expand their field of view, but in doing so they lose depth perception. Where they are exceptional is in picking up movement, you'll observe them moving their heads about trying to discern what caught their eye to compensate for their lack of depth perception.

I normally use either a very old, olive drab, ex-Israeli parka jacket which has some mottled effect (inadvertent due to overzealous use stain remover) or alternatively, an ex-british army dpm jacket. Pants are ex-French camouflage, very drab and well washed at this stage. Rifle stock is PSE, dark with green and tan splotches, I like it but fairly certain the deer could not care less.

Out on my last stalk of the season one week to the day ago with a buddy of mine. Dawn stalk, after about 1.5hrs of bumping Hares and a couple of Sika a couple of times, we're working our way downhill the east side of a paddock towards some scrub woods with a stream at the bottom, then open ground to Kenmare Bay. I'm wearing DPM camo jacket (my buddy a green solid drab jacket), and a camo scarf that comes up over my nose and a brimmed hat to break up my profile. The sun has risen and is at our backs. With that, a hind and her follower appear in the middle of the paddock like magic. They don't spot us, my buddy is to take the shot and has managed to go prone. I'm caught standing and cannot move for fear they'll spot me. The deer keep moving directly towards us, take a couple of steps, graze a couple of mouthfuls, have a look, repeat. They were getting so close I thought introductions might be required . Eventually, shot taken on the follower, hit through the shoulder at an oblique angle, it heads off at knots, prescribes a fish hook trail and drops! Hind takes off about forty metres, and stops looking about, moves another thirty metres and stops. Eventually after about eight minutes, she climbs up on top of a dry bank, has a final look about and heads of into the scrub. She had no idea where the shot had come from or where we were (wind was in our face). We had the sun low on the horizon at our back (she was looking into it) and we did not move and thus she never twigged where we were located. So overall, I think that camouflage does more for us than the deer. However, anything thing that breaks up our outline and obscures our white faces and hands is useful. Slow movement and cover contribute a great deal to our effectiveness when stalking.

 

[Suilven]

Interesting discussion, I understand that an olive or brown smock is likely as good as a camo smock and that the key is controlled slow movement and covering hands and face etc.

But if camo wasn't effective or necessary, where did the selective pressure for tigers to evolve stripes, lions to be tawny, lynx and leopards to be spotted etc come from?

 

[Heym SR20]

Interesting discussion, I understand that an olive or brown smock is likely as good as a camo smock and that the key is controlled slow movement and covering hands and face etc.

But if camo wasn't effective or necessary, where did the selective pressure for tigers to evolve stripes, lions to be tawny, lynx and leopards to be spotted etc come from?

I think the real difference is that with a rifle you can kill from afar. At 100m downwind most deer won’t know you are there. Even clearly visible they won’t do much until you start moving.

Try though to get with a few feet - very different matter. And mist predators launch an attack from as close as possible.

In terms of clothing, what’s more important is a soft dull surface finish. A wooly jumper is probably ideal, so is loden or felt. Worst is a shiny fabric abd even worse is something with lots of fluorescent brightners. In many countries hunters have to wear blaze orange. This is easily seen by man, but most prey animals only see in black and white or reds / greens / oranges all sort of merge together - those who are colourblind can’t easily distinguish between greens and oranges for example. And hunters often choose too dark clothing. Only in mid summer do we get lots of dark greens and shade in the countryside. Otherwise its often pretty light coloured - dry grass etc.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

Interesting discussion, I understand that an olive or brown smock is likely as good as a camo smock and that the key is controlled slow movement and covering hands and face etc.

But if camo wasn't effective or necessary, where did the selective pressure for tigers to evolve stripes, lions to be tawny, lynx and leopards to be spotted etc come from?

A tiger etc has to get within striking distance of its prey. We can shoot an animal from 100 yards without working up a sweat and at that distance the camo on a rifle makes not a jot of difference.
I regularly shoot munties within 40 yards. I wear a cap but my face is not covered. I shot a muntjac the other night at about 20 yards from the seat. My not al attire is plain colour jacket and trousers.
The main reason for us to wear camo, imho, is so humans do not see us and interfere. I have nothing against camo, and sometimes wear it, more because the jacket is the shape and type and with a camo pattern than any other reason.

There have been detailed conversations about camo on here before.

find a lot of wooden rifles are, well, frankly boring. Heresy I know. I don’t get t excited over a nice stock and I can’t afford a £5,000 walnut stock. So what the op is offering I think would get attention of people, both good and bad. As the expression goes, the only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about. So I would say, bring so in and see what the reaction is at the show. Nb. I need a lop of 16 and 1/4 inches.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

Apparently we were both writing the same thing at the same time.

 

[Freeforester]

We’ve seen a move towards disruptive patterned guns by tikka, Blaser, ourselves (Weatherby) etc… but what are everyone’s thoughts? Is this just an American/European fad or do subtle disruption patterns have a place?

Drab colours generally seem to work as well as camo, many would argue that movement is the main giveaway, but some have speculated that some deer species may see colour… we’re really interested to know what the U.K. market wants in terms of colour schemes on rifles?

View attachment 363369

Regional variations apply. Some camouflages blend well into their surroundings, whereas others are about as ‘inconspicuous’ as a rat poo in a sugar bowl. From a couple hundred yards, dark livestock in a grassy field look rather visible, whereas a dun coloured animal can be harder to discern, and is not generally the first seen animal. Conversely, a buffalo in the shadows of the African bush can whiles be very hard to make out.
The original pic shows something that I’d find useful in a coal mine stakeout, or what someone might use after dark, but it would not be my piece of choice for an area of predominantly dead grass, hill ground, etc. Again: regional variations apply.

‘There are flies to catch fish, and to catch fishermen’…



Notice the cyclists trousers, even against the dark background of the road, and contrast this with the helmet in the foreground of the wall; the white sheep in the middle distance are not so noticeable as the shadows on the distant hills.

 

[WeatherbyUK]

We’ve seen a move towards disruptive patterned guns by tikka, Blaser, ourselves (Weatherby) etc… but what are everyone’s thoughts? Is this just an American/European fad or do subtle disruption patterns have a place?

Drab colours generally seem to work as well as camo, many would argue that movement is the main giveaway, but some have speculated that some deer species may see colour… we’re really interested to know what the U.K. market wants in terms of colour schemes on rifles?

View attachment 363369

Thanks all for your feedback - regardless of effectiveness, there seem to be some strong feelings towards aesthetics and durability from both camps!

In answer to your other comments:

Cerakote - all 307 models, and most MKV models come with cerakote as standard

Length of pull spacers - we currently offer this for the Model 307… and we’re pretty sure we can do this for the MKV’s

Comb height - Our Peak 44 stocks are all already high in the comb to suit scoped rifles of up to 50mm, but we’ll work on an adjustable comb option.

Colours - Our new 307 models (700 footprint) are mostly conservative colours, and our MKV’s (6 or 9-lug) come in a variety (from plain black to mountain camo)… but we understand from the comments that we’ll need to cater to both sides of the camp

Thanks all for taking time to give us considered replies; it’s been very helpful

 

[sikamalc]

Before all this massive choice of clothing hit the market, there was not a lot to choose from. Army surplus type clothing or tweed was about all the choice one had. Some of the first reasonable gear was Truman Neilson (I think that was the product name) It was based on army cammo, gortex coat and trousers, and was pretty good stuff, but expensive for the time.
Moving forward we have a whole host of clothing to choose from. The American market seems to be based a great deal on stealth cammo, and some of it is very good quality and priced reasonable, or at least it was when the Pound was stronger than the dollar.

I have had all sorts of clothing over the years, quite a bit of which I bought whilst in the States visiting clients. Never let a chance go by to visit BassPro or Cableas.

About 4 years ago I bought some Sweedteam clothing, and have been reasonably impressed with it. I also have some Deer Hunter clothing, in drab green. In my opinion it makes little difference what you wear to go stalking, provided it is not white or black, or a bright colour. Deer pick up scent first, followed by movement, depending on the situation. Hearing is last, and on really windy days, deer tend to lay up more and not move so much.

I suppose it looks less intimidating to a member of the public if you are in greens, or tweeds. Never worn tweeds myself..............ticks love it!

I tend to wear cammo in Scotland in commercial forest and rides, and on the open hill at times. But at days end I really don't think it matters much at all. Deer will smell or spot you either way. Its called stalking, therefore you need to know how to stalk the deer, and know your ground to get the advantage.

 

[Morkai]

With clothing, I suppose it depends on what your quarry are used to.

If the quarry has no human contact you may want to blend in from afar.

If you are culling deer that are used to seeing walkers and ramblers as they are in publicy accessible land, you could probably get quite close in a brighly coloured North Face jacket.

When shooting on the farm, the more I look, move and act like a farm worker, the closer I can get to the crows.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

With clothing, I suppose it depends on what your quarry are used to.

If the quarry has not human contact you may want to blend in from afar.

If you are culling deer that are used to seeing walkers and ramblers as they are in publicy accessible land, you could probably get quite close in a brighly coloured North Face jacket.

When shooting on the farm, the more I look, move and act like a farm worker, the closer I can get to the crows.

If you can get close to crows, you can smack a deer on the arse!

And I’ve seen that done

 

[Morkai]

If you can get close to crows, you can smack a deer on the arse!

And I’ve seen that done

Clever buggers aren't they.

Where I shoot them, you really need a few people so you can ping-pong them from one side of the farm to the other.

 

[kenbro]

If camo makes so much difference then how do the Americans and some European countries wear bright orange without issue.
No need other than fashion.

They might get spotted and lose more shots
Ken.
Ps. For me, any darkish colours (Inc. face) but movement is the real giveaway.

 

[kenbro]

Clever buggers aren't they.

Where I shoot them, you really need a few people so you can ping-pong them from one side of the farm to the other.

They are clever but they can’t count…..if going to shoot from an hide, if two enter and then one goes away ( Get a buddy to help) the crows think it’s safe to approach the deeks.
Ken.

 

[DVS1]

I used to do the whole camo thing but I think it's an age thing, younger hunters like all the gadgets and gizmo's then seasoned hunters know a bit more from experience.

Rifle wise I tend to go for a plain coyote tan colour, MDT's coyote tan is a good colour for daytime or night time. I FINALLY found an almost perfect match of spray paint for the MDT coyote tan and have done silencer and barrel on the Rem700. The scope still sports the old camo job I did year's ago...like over 12 years ago so krypton does wear quite well. On a rainy day I will strip the camo off and go plain coyote also.