Can anyone with Quickload help with data for an unusual calibre please?

[njc110381]

Hi all. I'm back to trying to make up a soft load for an old drilling. The calibre is 8060R Magnum, which can apparently comfortably shoot 8x57 Mauser loadings. The thing is, it's an old gun and I only want to shoot roe and fallow over iron sights out to 75m or so, so I'm trying to go a bit easy on the old girl.

I have two powders here that may be suitable. Lovex D060, which is another label for Accurate 5744, and Viht N32c (Tinstar) which is similar but not the same as Hodgdon/IMR Trailboss. I have one potential load so far but it's from an unknown source so I'd really like to verify it! And potentially find one with Tinstar too if possible? The load I have is...

35gr of Lovex D060
Hornady 170gr round nose soft point
OAL 2.905
Expected velocity 2343fps (about 2040ft-lbs)

There's no pressure data for this loading and I don't know where it was originally sourced. I don't know if it's use it as it is low pressure or maximum work up. All in all, without backing it up somehow I don't plan to put it in my gun, but it looks ideal! If someone could check it for me I would be extremely grateful.

 

[Davee]

More info required, bullet number, barrel length, case capacity and length. Caliber not listed but 8x57 SAAMI or CIP ie max pressure 35000 or 56565psi.

 

[Lateral]

D060 only gives an estimated 70% fill, which is way too low in my opinion. QL also states there is a disparity between the bullet, and case diameter, for that bullet.

 

[Sinistral]

Hi all. I'm back to trying to make up a soft load for an old drilling. The calibre is 8060R Magnum, which can apparently comfortably shoot 8x57 Mauser loadings. The thing is, it's an old gun and I only want to shoot roe and fallow over iron sights out to 75m or so, so I'm trying to go a bit easy on the old girl.

I have two powders here that may be suitable. Lovex D060, which is another label for Accurate 5744, and Viht N32c (Tinstar) which is similar but not the same as Hodgdon/IMR Trailboss. I have one potential load so far but it's from an unknown source so I'd really like to verify it! And potentially find one with Tinstar too if possible? The load I have is...

35gr of Lovex D060
Hornady 170gr round nose soft point
OAL 2.905
Expected velocity 2343fps (about 2040ft-lbs)

There's no pressure data for this loading and I don't know where it was originally sourced. I don't know if it's use it as it is low pressure or maximum work up. All in all, without backing it up somehow I don't plan to put it in my gun, but it looks ideal! If someone could check it for me I would be extremely grateful.

Quickload? Accurate & Vihtavuori recommended loads? No way.
This is the 8x60 RS (.323”) rimmed form of the 8x60S, loaded right down to 3000 bar. It’s an antique, no kidding.

My Dynamit Nobel manual has a section on it using cases formed from RWS 7x65R. There are loads for 8x57 IRS, 8x57 JRS, 8x60S, and the 8x60RS using Rottweil R-series powders with RWS bullets ... 187gr HMK, 198gr TIG, and the 224gr KS conepoint. If you have to extrapolate, at least these other calibres provide a basis for comparison using the same yardstick?
Let’s start at the beginning.What bullets have you got?

 

[njc110381]

Thanks for the replies chaps. I've been flogging a retired horse for a long time with this one but it's not dead yet. The bore has been cast at .323 rather than .318, so that's a good start at least. I'm determined this thing is going to take a deer this year, and I don't have long to get that done!

The bullets I have are Hornady 3235
Case capacity is 4.16cc
Case length is 60mm
Barrel length is 595mm

The load I tried in it initially worked well and that was 35gr of Viht N140. It was suggested but not checked, and now I've looked more closely at it the case fill isn't great, verging on dodgy! It did shoot it pretty well however! I wonder what pressure that would have been producing? I chronographed it and it didn't make 1700ft-lbs. I've misplaced the numbers though.

From what I've found online the 8x60R Magnum is a higher pressure version capable of beating .30-06 energies, somewhere in the region of .300H&H. If I can get it to safely develop 1800ft-lbs I'll be happy with that.

Edit - I'm forming cases from Hornady 9.3x74R. Hornady brass is so thin that I don't even have to neck turn!

 

[njc110381]

D060 only gives an estimated 70% fill, which is way too low in my opinion. QL also states there is a disparity between the bullet, and case diameter, for that bullet.

I've found old Accurate 5744 notes from their ballisticians suggesting that this powder can be loaded down to 40% case fill without risking detonation. It's a recognised "reduced charge" powder. D060 is 5744, Lovex produced the powder for Accurate who marketed it under their own branding. It's a popular cast bullet propellant and has been used in reduced loads in calibres from .22 Hornet to African big game rifles. My problem is I don't know where the the points are where I may get a bullet stuck, or hit maximum load. You don't get sticky extraction or extractor marks on the case from old break action guns like this. They'll pop before it reaches that point!

 

[Sinistral]

Thanks for the replies chaps. I've been flogging a retired horse for a long time with this one but it's not dead yet. The bore has been cast at .323 rather than .318, so that's a good start at least. I'm determined this thing is going to take a deer this year, and I don't have long to get that done!

The bullets I have are Hornady 3235
Case capacity is 4.16cc
Case length is 60mm
Barrel length is 595mm

The load I tried in it initially worked well and that was 35gr of Viht N140. It was suggested but not checked, and now I've looked more closely at it the case fill isn't great, verging on dodgy! It did shoot it pretty well however! I wonder what pressure that would have been producing? I chronographed it and it didn't make 1700ft-lbs. I've misplaced the numbers though.

From what I've found online the 8x60R Magnum is a higher pressure version capable of beating .30-06 energies, somewhere in the region of .300H&H. If I can get it to safely develop 1800ft-lbs I'll be happy with that.

Edit - I'm forming cases from Hornady 9.3x74R. Hornady brass is so thin that I don't even have to neck turn!

Okay … using the closest match to the Hornady 170gr RN (181gr HMK), the RWS manual has 200 fps between the rimless & rimmed rounds:-
8x60S 54.5grs R903* @ 2722 fps (830 m/s)
8x60RS 49.5grs R903* @ 2525 fps (770 m/s)

Note the loading volume - VN160 or VN165 is close to R903 which I've used. Will check my notes TBC ...

 

[njc110381]

Thanks Sinistral, very much appreciated. I'll have a look at cross referencing that with other powders in similar cases and see what I come up with too. I think N165 is very close to Reloder 22? I have that.

I've not been at work today so I've been searching high and low for data and stumbled across some other cross referencing with 5744 on the Accurate site. Whether it's any good is anyone's guess, but it's interesting to me...

.308 is listed as having a load for 168gr bullets from 25gr to 35gr. Velocity range 2000fps to 2700fps. 35gr is near max load going by the pressure specs.
.30-06 has a cast bullet load for a 173gr Lyman at 25gr of 5744. As the .30-06 runs a similar pressure to the .308, I guess the higher load isn't there because it will create too much pressure for a cast lead bullet?
8x60R has the same powder capacity to the base of the neck as the .30-06 does but the bore is of course bigger, so the pressure will build more slowly given the same weight of bullet. How much more slowly, not sure?!
So going by the maths of the ballistician's notes and the loads on the website, minimum charge for the 8x60R is 22gr. The pressure is low enough to not mess up a cast bullet in a .30-06 at 25gr so that will be safe too. Beyond that, well I'm not that clever! I guess I've figured out my start load and a close estimate for maximum?
Edit - The close estimate for maximum exactly matches the loads I've found but cannot verify...

 

[enfieldspares]

In theory and in practice any safe load in .303 British will be a safe load in your 8x60 but BE AWARE that the case capacity of your 8x60 will be greater so I'd use that as a reference but in fact use information for starting loads for the 8x57R as you actual starting point. Use the data on the powder makers websites. As 8x60 is of course the 8x57 with 2mm extra on the body and 1mm extra on the neck. As it was designed as a simple Versailles Treaty 1920 Rules conversion of reaming out any 8x57 above the 100,000 the Reichswehr could keep (or 8x57R) any load for 8x57R will be safe. Subject to your gun being itself sound. I did own a 8x60S Mauser rifle but not the Magnum Bombe proofed version.

 

[njc110381]

A friend of mine pointed out a load to me this evening using RL15 and saying similar to you. Charge weights with that powder varied somewhat from various sources so we went for the lowest listed start charge of 40gr. As the gun hasn't fired a full power load in it's life (there's a very interesting and quite sad story behind that from the previous owner), I went for the hillbilly proof and wedged it in and old tyre and put a bag of compost on it to hold it down. String from the trigger through the kitchen window and trigger set! Two loads fired and all is well, no signs of any problems. Happy days - on new years eve the bang of firing it in the garden doesn't bother the neighbours so it was a good time to test it!

 

[njc110381]

Maximum load in .303 is 42gr, maximum load in 8x57 Mauser is 49gr according to the Alliant reloader's guide. I was told some years ago that a good rule of thumb with rimmed versions of rimless cartridges was to drop off 10% from the rimless data and use that as maximum load. Could anyone do a velocity projection for me? I need to make 2125fps and I don't own a chronograph. They're available to me at the range I shoot at but I won't be doing that until after the stalks I have planned! I reckon it'll be ok but it's a good idea to check if possible.

 

[Muir]

Whatever the OP ends up shooting, the utility of the load will be how well it's trajectory aligns with the regulation of the sights. IT comes down to not what you want to shoot, but what you must shoot to hit where you're aiming.~Muir

 

[njc110381]

Whatever the OP ends up shooting, the utility of the load will be how well it's trajectory aligns with the regulation of the sights. IT comes down to not what you want to shoot, but what you must shoot to hit where you're aiming.~Muir

I'm lucky with this one Muir, the front sight is dovetailed so it can be replaced with a taller one or filed down to suit. Rear sight is windage adjustable. It would be more vital if it was a double rifle drilling but with just the one rifle barrel it's remarkably easy to tune to the load rather than have to do it the hard way!

 

[Muir]

I'm lucky with this one Muir, the front sight is dovetailed so it can be replaced with a taller one or filed down to suit. Rear sight is windage adjustable. It would be more vital if it was a double rifle drilling but with just the one rifle barrel it's remarkably easy to tune to the load rather than have to do it the hard way!

MY CZ carbines have that sight system. It is a real frustration balm. With my Husqvarna 9.3x57 I had to carefully adjust the loads to hit where I wanted. I have several rifles that I have gone through the process with. It's an education. Good luck.~Muir

 

[njc110381]

MY CZ carbines have that sight system. It is a real frustration balm. With my Husqvarna 9.3x57 I had to carefully adjust the loads to hit where I wanted. I have several rifles that I have gone through the process with. It's an education. Good luck.~Muir

It sounds like a frustrating but interesting challenge! I'd probably enjoy trying to do that myself. I guess changing powder burn rates, powder charges and bullet weights until the harmonics are right? There's bound to be a fairly scientific way of sending things in the direction you want it to move, but I don't know what it is.

I dug a bullet out of my backstop today after the two test firings. Impact velocity would have been fairly high for the load as I was only about ten meters from the target, the 170gr Hornady ended up weighing 116.8gr with the petals of jacket folded right back around the base of the bullet. I wasn't expecting such high losses but I think it'll do the job just fine on small deer if it opens up that fast. It's not a perfectly reliable test but going by how bullets generally open up in that substrate it's a fairly lively one! I'll take a test target with me to my ground in the morning and pop a couple of rounds into it at 50m to see where it's going. If it's somewhere handy I can hopefully take a roe with it, if not I can still spend the day shotgunning squirrels which is the main plan anyway.