Copper bullets - the limitations

[User00040]

We've gone from 'no lead' to 'no metal' already...? What next? No fookin' hole?

There will be no venison market soon as we will all have seen the light and turned vegan.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

1-8 is a fast twist for a regular 243 win . Fast twist stabilise longer bullets , many factory 243 will not stabilise a 100 grain lead really well , so 100 grain copper is a no hope .
Its also why the 243 win was such a commercial success when tge 6mm rem failed as that didn't manage the lighter varmint bullets

Always hope
Shot the 100gr Peregrine in a .243 20” Mauser M12 with standard 1:10” twist
Worked perfectly

 

[Alantoo]

@Range

Always hope
Shot the 100gr Peregrine in a .243 20” Mauser M12 with standard 1:10” twist
Worked perfectly

 

[Bowland blades]

Always hope
Shot the 100gr Peregrine in a .243 20” Mauser M12 with standard 1:10” twist
Worked perfectly

Surprised indeed but thats sometimes how things go , we can only generalise ans as many 243 will tel, you 95 shoots way better and 100 in lead are a bit more touch and go . My 1-10 was a tack driver with everything I fed it , I mean there was only the odd thing its wouldn't place a single raggy hole in a piece of paper
Twist relates to bullet length through that we know and copper / brass are significantly longer than tge same weight in lead
I wouldn't have swapped out the barrel for anything but another 243 otherwise, still pondering another .243 full rifle ( I did retain the barrel on ticket) but with a mind to 80 / 85 copper

 

[Yorric]

Surprised indeed but thats sometimes how things go , we can only generalise ans as many 243 will tel, you 95 shoots way better and 100 in lead are a bit more touch and go . My 1-10 was a tack driver with everything I fed it , I mean there was only the odd thing its wouldn't place a single raggy hole in a piece of paper
Twist relates to bullet length through that we know and copper / brass are significantly longer than tge same weight in lead
I wouldn't have swapped out the barrel for anything but another 243 otherwise, still pondering another .243 full rifle ( I did retain the barrel on ticket) but with a mind to 80 / 85 copper

The thing you should consider is do not damn something that you have not tried yourself. 100 grain stumpy lead free bullets can be stable in a ten twist 243 if driven at good velocity.
This next few weeks will find me testing 65 and 75 grain bullets in my eight twist barrel.,,,, just to see for myself what happens rather than believing the nay-sayers and stability calculators.
Ian

 

[Bowland blades]

The thing you should consider is do not damn something that you have not tried yourself. 100 grain stumpy lead free bullets can be stable in a ten twist 243 if driven at good velocity.
This next few weeks will find me testing 65 and 75 grain bullets in my eight twist barrel.,,,, just to see for myself what happens rather than believing the nay-sayers and stability calculators.
Ian

It can be just don't bank on it! That's how it is in reality . One can take two of the same and one will thevother won't thats how it goes

 

[Apthorpe]

The GMX is a diabolical bullet, tried them once and never again!

with my Barnes 130gn 270 load at 2950fps, I would have to shoot out to over 500m to get the answers your
looking for and I can’t answer you because I’ve never shot an animal at that distance.

but I can tell you from experience the 130gn ttsx does expand and exit on lowland red deer at 325m doing the speed of 2220fps approx.

Thank you very much. That's useful to know.

With the stats for Fox 7x57, 2200fps is reached at 200m, so the limit comes a fair bit closer. Not that I have any intention of shooting anything further than 200m.

I was just wondering........., given that we're constantly told that lead ammunition is toast within very few years and that the pressure is from the US as well as EU, how that was compatible with the current state of the market being one that strongly promotes shooting at very long ranges, and consequently low impact velocities. One of those paradoxes, I suppose.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Thank you very much. That's useful to know.

With the stats for Fox 7x57, 2200fps is reached at 200m, so the limit comes a fair bit closer. Not that I have any intention of shooting anything further than 200m.

I was just wondering........., given that we're constantly told that lead ammunition is toast within very few years and that the pressure is from the US as well as EU, how that was compatible with the current state of the market being one that strongly promotes shooting at very long ranges, and consequently low impact velocities. One of those paradoxes, I suppose.

I’ve never read into all the if, buts and maybe’s like the dooms day preppers!

all those years ago I just picked a bullet, powder charge wht of roughly how quick i wanted them to go and off o went killing deer and never looked back.

yes I’ve fannied about trying different bullets but I always have returned back to the Barnes ttsx.

 

[Alantoo]

So from actual use across a range of lead free bullets, what is working well on deer inside 300m?

Maybe ask FCS, given your location. They ought to know. And from what I hear have moved up from 270 to 308. As to where they now get their none-lead cartridges from, I would not hazard a guess, but it will be a big contract. And with these things, the lowest bidder often gets it, irrespective of whether it is the best. Also I would expect that they don't have a single source of supply. Chicken, eggs, one basket.

Maybe an anonymous FCS employee or contractor could comment here as to what the issue stuff is, nowadays.

@Range

Ooops! my #183 post appears to have gorn off half cock...it should have read something along the lines of ....

If you are looking for further professional confirmation @Ranger22 has been using factory copper for a few years, he had shot between 1500-2000 by 2014...He has spoken well of the effectiveness of Barnes, Hornady and Federal offerings. Do a search on his posts....e.g.

Lead free (copper) bullets

just my 2p ( i have been shooting copper ammo for 2 years) If you want good results go down at least 20% bullet weight, ie if you shoot 150gr 308,in copper use 130gr Andy7mm

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

Alan

 

[sauer]

I wish they would make something suitable lead free for .22lr ....or put same effort i To sorting rimfore ammo lead free
then air rifles......

 

[EQUADIF68]

I wish they would make something suitable lead free for .22lr ....or put same effort i To sorting rimfore ammo lead free
then air rifles......

It is done

 

[deerhunter270]

Funnily enough just this morning I ordered a load of fox bullets from Ed for the 6.5 and the .222.

Out of interest what grain of .222 did you get , might be having to go to lead free for a FLS lease if we get it and would like to continue to use my .222, have heard the 50 grn bullets don't stabilise

 

[Alantoo]

It is done

Tell us more.

Have you published your book yet?

Alan

 

[Acm]

I got the 45 grn. I loaded some at the weekend and will test them soon. Will post results!

 

[muddy42]

Interesting thread. Various people suggest dropping down to 80 gr for 243 1:10 twist, however I can only get the Berger Stability calculator to show this as “marginal stable.” 85 gr lead nosler partition comes out as “stable” by comparison. Am I missing something?

 

[NigelM]

Interesting thread. Various people suggest dropping down to 80 gr for 243 1:10 twist, however I can only get the Berger Stability calculator to show this as “marginal stable.” 85 gr lead nosler partition comes out as “stable” by comparison. Am I missing something?

View attachment 199770View attachment 199771

The Berger calculator does not take account of plastic tips, as Berger don't use them. The JBM stability calculator does factor in the plastic tip.

JBM - Calculations - Stability

www.jbmballistics.com

 

[muddy42]

The Berger calculator does not take account of plastic tips, as Berger don't use them. The JBM stability calculator does factor in the plastic tip.

JBM - Calculations - Stability

www.jbmballistics.com

Thanks. Now I need to find out how Barnes measure their bullets!

 

[User00040]

Interesting thread. Various people suggest dropping down to 80 gr for 243 1:10 twist, however I can only get the Berger Stability calculator to show this as “marginal stable.” 85 gr lead nosler partition comes out as “stable” by comparison. Am I missing something?

Yes.

Hit deer in the right place (hopefully just the once) with a suitable bullet and the deer will die.

Navel gazing online and in internet forums has probably led to more problems than it has solved.

 

[NigelM]

Thanks. Now I need to find out how Barnes measure their bullets!

Back to JBM again... It is a very good resource.

JBM - Bullet Length List

www.jbmballistics.com

 

[User00040]

Out of interest what grain of .222 did you get , might be having to go to lead free for a FLS lease if we get it and would like to continue to use my .222, have heard the 50 grn bullets don't stabilise

Lapua do a .222 factory loading with a 50 grain lead-free bullet: Lapua 222 Rem 3,2 g N566 Naturalis | Ahti Huvila - Erätuotteiden verkkokauppa

Shame no one in the UK imports them, would be interesting to try it out.

However with VAT, Brexit and associated import difficulties, £60 a box would not be out of the question...