Deer and shotguns!

[Heym SR20]

No that's incorrect. Any shot gun cartridge that contains three or mor pellets none of which exceed .36" diameter is legal in the UK to possess on a Shot Gun Certificate. The diameter of .36" being called "LG" or in the USA "OOO" buckshot. Below that are the lesser sizes, SG, Special SG, SSG and AAA. There used also to even be an MG but that size is now no longer ever seen except in old time tables of shot sizes....but is pretty much the size of USA "OO" buckshot.

In terms of lethal effect pattern will always fail before penetration and from actual results (on humans)....I have this from someone who worked in that field...it is distance that is the only critical factor.

That is to say that at a distance that SSG shot is assured of inflicting a mortal or lethal wound #6 shot would also be as assured of inflicting a mortal or lethal wound. I was quite surprised at that but apparently that is what the results proved.

As correctly MS infers any person may purchase deer legal, England AAA, Scotland SSG (AAA for roe) buckshot type shot gun cartridges on a standard Shot Gun Certificate and does not require an FAC unless he wishes to have "solid slug" ammunition.

The legislation is however framed in "old practices" and does not mention the shot charge weight (although it does for the "solid slug" exception) of the AAA charge and so takes no account of modern 20 bore 3" Magnum cartridges.

Also, quite perversely, it would be an offence to take a deer in the circumstances that allow a shot gun with a 10 bore firing AAA shot even though such a shot load, around two ounces, would exceed that in any 12 bore of equivalent cartridge length. Why is this so?

The actual wording int he Home Office Guidance is:

2.51 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containingfive or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridgesare covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificateauthorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotguncartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball orprojectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate.






Regardless of the above SSG is only .25 or .26 inches in diameter so do question whether or not it has sufficient weight to give it the penetration required to be effective at anything more than 20 or so yards. How many gunshops actually stock SSG let alone anything larger. At 25 yards we are probably talking the same sort of velocity as .25 airgun pellet at the muzzle and that doesn't have a lot of penetration - it might slip between the ribs, but is it going to go through a shoulder and then heart / lungs? I think not.

If you are going to use a shotgun, you have to be using large diameter buckshot or solid slugs if you want an effective range of anything more than a few yards - remember that the weight of a pellet goes up with the cube of its radius, and thus so does it momentum and energy (given it goes out with the same velocity) and thus ability to penetrate.

Comments above re using shotguns on leopard and lion and even with small shot size, the basic advice is to shot them off the end of your barrels so effectively you are hitting them with a one and bit ounce ball of lead.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

I shoot my fair share of deer here in north as do many of my friends one of which is a ranger with the FC, lead shot in deer is not common. I can't remember of any instance of finding lead shot, however I have found .22LR bullets in two deer.

I think it is irresponsible to try and state that it is the norm on vermin/fox drives for people to blast away with shotguns at deer. On the shoots and estates where I have participated in fox drives I have never known of a person shoot at deer or where such behaviour would be accepted.

I think MS should think before posting, on the whole I find that most people who hunt/shoot have a high respect for both the law and the quarry they pursue.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I shoot my fair share of deer here in north as do many of my friends one of which is a ranger with the FC, lead shot in deer is not common. I can't remember of any instance of finding lead shot, however I have found .22LR bullets in two deer.

I think it is irresponsible to try and state that it is the norm on vermin/fox drives for people to blast away with shotguns at deer. On the shoots and estates where I have participated in fox drives I have never known of a person shoot at deer or where such behaviour would be accepted.

I think MS should think before posting, on the whole I find that most people who hunt/shoot have a high respect for both the law and the quarry they pursue.

Who stated that it was the norm? My actual words were:
"It saddens me that this is when some people see fit to blast away at deer with shotguns!"
Far from the norm, but still happens! When you eventually get muntjac in the densities we have them around here, the views of your local landowners and game shoot lease holders may well change. We should not bury our heads in the sand over such issues. Bringing such topics for debate into the open will hopefully raise awareness and could prevent it. There are people out there that don't even realise they are doing anything wrong as they have never been educated as such! It often comes down to the educated like us to inform them otherwise!
You last statement:
"on the whole I find that most people who hunt/shoot have a high respect for both the law and the quarry they pursue".
I would wholeheartedly agree with. As usual, it is a small minority that spoil it for the majority. The fact that the majority decry such behaviour is what gives us strength and a future.
MS

 

[scrumbag]

Hi Folks,

Couldn't remember where these were but now I have.

This is a Canadian and he's recorded some hunting of deer with Buckshot

00 Buckshot:

and

#4 Buckshot:

It show's how effective shotguns with buckshot can be when used at limited ranges

KR,

Scrummy

 

[jubnut]

The actual wording int he Home Office Guidance is:

2.51 A shotgun certificate is not required to possess or acquire shotgun cartridges containingfive or more shot, none of which exceeds .36 inch in diameter. All ordinary shot cartridgesare covered by this description. However, a shotgun certificate (or firearm certificateauthorising possession of a section 1 shotgun) is normally required to purchase shotguncartridges. All single bulleted ammunition, for example solid slug, spherical ball orprojectiles for birdscaring equipment, is subject to the requirement for a firearm certificate.






Regardless of the above SSG is only .25 or .26 inches in diameter so do question whether or not it has sufficient weight to give it the penetration required to be effective at anything more than 20 or so yards. How many gunshops actually stock SSG let alone anything larger. At 25 yards we are probably talking the same sort of velocity as .25 airgun pellet at the muzzle and that doesn't have a lot of penetration - it might slip between the ribs, but is it going to go through a shoulder and then heart / lungs? I think not.

If you are going to use a shotgun, you have to be using large diameter buckshot or solid slugs if you want an effective range of anything more than a few yards - remember that the weight of a pellet goes up with the cube of its radius, and thus so does it momentum and energy (given it goes out with the same velocity) and thus ability to penetrate.

Comments above re using shotguns on leopard and lion and even with small shot size, the basic advice is to shot them off the end of your barrels so effectively you are hitting them with a one and bit ounce ball of lead.

Have you ever shot SSG through a 12 bore? Believe me. It penetrates. Much further than 25 yards.

As Enfield said though the pattern is absolutely useless.

 

[Grand Slam]

After talking to the woodsman on the ground I shoot I only found out last week that they was still shooting muntjac with shotguns, I told him it was illegal and his reply was he had read you could shoot them as they are classed as vermin in woodland. I have got it stopped now , how come on a fac you have to have a rifle conditioned for deer and boar but they say your allowed to shoot with a shotgun

Was having a read of this thread and came across this post. I have spoke to two different individuals who were under the impression that Muntjac were vermin and can be culled using a shotgun as standard practice. I tried to explain to them that this is not the case and shotguns can only be used in certain circumstances but I have a feeling it fell on deaf ears. This is land I also have access to so will need to keep an eye out to see if this practice is continuing.

GS