EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles

[Liveonce]

Conor, BASC

In a recent BASC membership survey, 70% of respondents stated “phasing out the use of lead and plastic shotgun ammunition” as either very or somewhat important.

Until they find out the real cost of losing lead and plastic, very much more expensive cartridges (and ammunition) and;

Copied from another forum Pigeonwatch

I did say that the only effect the steel shot ban would have would be to devalue those guns we own which aren’t proofed for such, and it would seem its already proving so.
Mate has just bought himself a new auto from Malmo Guns, and was told they will only part ex’ his current auto if it is steel proofed.
He was told they are no longer buying as part ex’, autos which are not steel proofed as no one wants them, and gave the decision by our shooting orgs to call for a voluntary lead shot phase out, as the cause.
He was told they have quite a collection of good S/H autos which no one wants, so that’s it, no more bought in.
The policy doesn’t effect Trap guns, for obvious reasons, but game guns weren’t mentioned.
It’s all quite sad really, because you CAN shoot steel through ANY gun proofed for nitro.
It would seem there is still, after all these years, a massive mistrust of, and misunderstanding regarding steel shot and none steel shot proofed guns.

 

[cjm1066]

Remember the removal of lead in petrol. We now drive cars that do more mpg.

The vintage car clubs are thriving, some converted to lead free, a few using limited supplies of leaded petrol.

Already some think lead free bullets are better in rifles, lead free shotgun is evolving as is 22 rimfire.

How long before lead is a memory, 5, 10 years?

The manufacturers know the direction of travel.

 

[BryanDC]

This year is the 25th anniversary of the lead ban in DK. Nobody even thinks about lead anymore. Having discussed it with others, nearly all of them would not change back to lead if they were allowed to. Most are also very happy with the transition away from plastic wads to bio degradable types and we are seeing more and more choice of these in the shops. The last thing hunters here want is anyone using plastic wads and lead against them.

 

[Liveonce]

This year is the 25th anniversary of the lead ban in DK. Nobody even thinks about lead anymore. Having discussed it with others, nearly all of them would not change back to lead if they were allowed to. Most are also very happy with the transition away from plastic wads to bio degradable types and we are seeing more and more choice of these in the shops. The last thing hunters here want is anyone using plastic wads and lead against them.

Indeed you do need to move away from non biodegradable plastic wads as your 25years have caused an issue with plastic pollution. Sadly as of yet no way forward that will please everybody.

Plastic litter from shotgun ammunition on Danish coastlines - Amounts and provenance - PubMed

Plastic litter in the marine environment is a major global issue. Discarded plastic shotgun ammunition shells and discharged wads are an unwelcome addition and feature among the top ten litter items found on reference beaches in Denmark. To understand this problem, its scale and origins...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[BryanDC]

Indeed you do need to move away from non biodegradable plastic wads as your 25years have caused an issue with plastic pollution. Sadly as of yet no way forward that will please everybody.

Plastic litter from shotgun ammunition on Danish coastlines - Amounts and provenance - PubMed

Plastic litter in the marine environment is a major global issue. Discarded plastic shotgun ammunition shells and discharged wads are an unwelcome addition and feature among the top ten litter items found on reference beaches in Denmark. To understand this problem, its scale and origins...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yes we do and that is what is happening. The last cartridges I bought have bio degradable wads and that is what I will buy from now on. Not sure what you mean with no way forward. As far as I know most people are quite happy to switch to bio wads even if at present they cost a little more. Last time you posted the same article I also mentioned that we are trying to do something about capturing casings that are ejected from autos. I believe that will be going into production quite soon. If I had an auto I would be buying one as soon as it was available as I don't want to be the one leaving crap out in the world if I can help it and at the same time giving ammunition to the antis.

 

[kes]

I suppose my comments reflect how important shooting is to me, how important it is to me to kill cleanly and because I eat my shot stuff. Aside from that, how important is it we maintain shooting as an 'industry' old gun sales, being but one part. There is also the question of what we pass to the next generation - rather important also to me.
People who live in the countryside also value greatly history and dislike change for change's sake.
A lead ban, even voluntary, wipes away most of the foregoing and yes, I am not happy with a lead ban, given the miraculous transforming studies which are supposed NOW to point how damaging lead shot from shotguns is, where previously they did not, apparently.
BASC et al are 'changing' for one agenda - their survival, whilst trashing another - ours.
'Baby' and 'bath water' writ large.

 

[Apthorpe]

Much of the discussion in this thread and others online around lead ammunition are perhaps less about the evidence and more about people's individual views/position. Which is very understandable. Change is difficult and for lead ammunition the personal perspectives aspect has been researched as follows:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.30

Again, that might well be because you remain unwilling to address the evidence or answer people's queries on the topic. If you'd like us to take this on the merits of the science, that's great, but the science does not support the position BASC has now taken, and you have published at least some material which is extremely tendentious to put it mildly.

The paper you link to here, while of course being authored by the usual suspects - raises important issues which continue to get ignored by proponents of this move, and isn't really science, it's pseudoscience. I'd further note, that the paper you're quoting researches fewer people's opinion than this thread alone. The sample was particularly small, wad selected by invitation, not randomly nor representatively, some participants knew each other. At least one of the participants was so misinformed as to be fairly described as an idiot. It is not clear how the authors were legitimately able to access data about the population of shooters which would be necessary to design a proper study, without some sort of breach of the law.
Notwithstanding that, the paper shows that collectively the group keen on swapping away from lead holds a completely mutually contradictory set of opinions on the topic, in particular suggestive of a total ignorance of the science as well as a collective incapacity for intelligent thought.

Some of those are the same issues you keep coming up against here. They are fundamental, and for so long as you persist in declining to address them, you're going to leave the large majority of people unpersuaded.

If you want to claim that the policy is evidence-led and underpinned by science, then you must also engage with what the science says and stop ignoring it when you don't like it.

This is a pigs' breakfast, and I do at least take some ironic comfort from the fact that you're saying that BASC, while campaigning for a voluntary move to non-toxic shot because lead shot is intolerably dangerous, is also campaigning against any new law to restrict the use of lead ammunition because there is not adequate evidence that it is harmful to people or wildlife. Were any individuals employed at BASC participants in the study?

 

[Liveonce]

As far as I know most people are quite happy to switch to bio wads even if at present they cost a little more.

That depends on your definition of , most, a little more and what you shoot with.

Denmark is a small country compared to the U.K. as I have asked basc what is the worlds total manufacturing capacity of steel shoot suitable for shooting? You may find if the EU and U.K. all totally ban lead shot that supply and demand pricing for steel shoot will push up the price of cartridges a lot above “a little more”.

A couple of hours or less to make a tonne of lead shot but a week to make a tonne of steel shot.

 

[Liveonce]

BASC et al are 'changing' for one agenda - their survival, whilst trashing another - ours.

BASC et al are changing to save the large commercial game shoots, for it they cannot sell the shot game into the food chain then how can you justify shooting it?
And in the process are throwing the rest of us under the bus.

 

[Apthorpe]

BASC et al are changing to save the large commercial game shoots, for it they cannot sell the shot game into the food chain then how can you justify shooting it?
And in the process are throwing the rest of us under the bus.

Spot on.

 

[howa243]

According to the BASC press release there will be exemptions for target and clay pigeon shooting where there are proper bullet traps in place. Many clay grounds also have embankments to catch shot.

If we were still within the EU we would have been able to lobby British MEPs to vote against it ( oh, sorry we just sent idiots over there like Farage etc who were just enjoyed the gravy train), now we have no say whatsoever in Europe.

And yes thanks to Brexit it should not apply here per se, but our idiots will take this, gold plate it and make you sign for every single copper bullet and pellet you use.

And as regards target shooting with non-toxic, haven’t Fox released a solid nosed training bullet thats half the price of copper bullets.

Am not necessarily a fan, but the bloke earned more money on the metals exchange and spent twenty years of his life fighting for something and eventually achieved it. You might not like the dude, but am not sure he is an idiot.

 

[Liveonce]

Heym SR20 said:
According to the BASC press release there will be exemptions for target and clay pigeon shooting where there are proper bullet traps in place. Many clay grounds also have embankments to catch shot.

And the clay grounds that do not have embankments we just close down do we? Yet more victims to go under the bus.

 

[Heym SR20]

Heym SR20 said:
According to the BASC press release there will be exemptions for target and clay pigeon shooting where there are proper bullet traps in place. Many clay grounds also have embankments to catch shot.

And the clay grounds that do not have embankments we just close down do we? Yet more victims to go under the bus.

many clay grounds have embankments to stop noise - and will be a requirement of planning. On most clay grounds there is a defined area where shot falls. Some grounds use a mesh (like a weed mesh) to capture shot, and after a few years many grounds will skim off topsoil to recover the lead.

Or switch over to will then be cheaper steel shot.

 

[Liveonce]

many clay grounds have embankments to stop noise - and will be a requirement of planning. On most clay grounds there is a defined area where shot falls. Some grounds use a mesh (like a weed mesh) to capture shot, and after a few years many grounds will skim off topsoil to recover the lead.

Or switch over to will then be cheaper steel shot.

Dream on when you say many and most, certainly none of the English sporting clay grounds I have ever visited have what you describe. Possibly trap disciplines could have.
But sporting clays are the most popular by far type of clay pigeon shooting in the U.K. and a lot of sporting clays are shoot over wooded ground where the shot falls, good luck skimming off the topsoil or using mesh in that environment.

Keep mention cheaper steel shot, when steel shot cartridges first come out they were cheaper than the lead equivalent but have you looked at the prices recently? Especially for clay grounds that must use biodegradable wads.

 

[Heym SR20]

Dream on when you say many and most, certainly none of the English sporting clay grounds I have ever visited have what you describe. Possibly trap disciplines could have.
But sporting clays are the most popular by far type of clay pigeon shooting in the U.K. and a lot of sporting clays are shoot over wooded ground where the shot falls, good luck skimming off the topsoil or using mesh in that environment.

I am not going to into a fight on every single clay ground but I have visited a few and their grounds all have big embankments.

And most clay pigeon guns - ie Berreta’s and Brownings are steel shot proofed so can easily use steel shot cartridges, which given volume and price of lead are getting cheaper by the day. So most clay grounds can continue easily enough without having to change.

Yes a few of us who like to use old vintage guns will need to use clay grounds - like Bisley at Braidwood, or West Wycombe (which are the two I mostly visit) that have plenty of sporting layouts that are surrounded by embankments and will allow the use of lead.

And as for price of Cartridges- no I haven’t shot anything for a long time as there are no clay grounds within five miles of Edinburgh City Limits and as I live in Edinburgh Scottish law precludes us from travelling for leisure activities.

 

[Liveonce]

I am not going to into a fight on every single clay ground but I have visited a few and their grounds all have big embankments.

And most clay pigeon guns - ie Berreta’s and Brownings are steel shot proofed so can easily use steel shot cartridges, which given volume and price of lead are getting cheaper by the day. So most clay grounds can continue easily enough without having to change.

Yes a few of us who like to use old vintage guns will need to use clay grounds - like Bisley at Braidwood, or West Wycombe (which are the two I mostly visit) that have plenty of sporting layouts that are surrounded by embankments and will allow the use of lead.

And as for price of Cartridges- no I haven’t shot anything for a long time as there are no clay grounds within five miles of Edinburgh City Limits and as I live in Edinburgh Scottish law precludes us from travelling for leisure activities.

That’s why I say we are not their yet with non toxic.

So the clay ground swaps over to steel shot and must use biodegradable wads, so a quick look now at justcartridges and eley steel shot pro-eco load ie using biodegradable wads and the price of the clay cartridges are £339.00 per 1000 and the Eley select in fibre wad with lead shot are £205.00 per 1000.

Can you see clay pigeon shooting surviving at £339.00 per 1000 for cartridges plus the cost of the clays?

It’s a rich mans world, under the bus the rest of us go.

Not sure how close you are to Westland country park, if you can when allowed go down take a look around and ask yourself how recovery of lead shot is possible.

 

[Heym SR20]

That’s why I say we are not their yet with non toxic.

So the clay ground swaps over to steel shot and must use biodegradable wads, so a quick look now at justcartridges and eley steel shot pro-eco load ie using biodegradable wads and the price of the clay cartridges are £339.00 per 1000 and the Eley select in fibre wad with lead shot are £205.00 per 1000.

Can you see clay pigeon shooting surviving at £339.00 per 1000 for cartridges plus the cost of the clays?

It’s a rich mans world, under the bus the rest of us go.

Not sure how close you are to Westland country park, if you can when allowed go down take a look around and ask yourself how recovery of lead shot is possible.

Prices will come down. At moment due to pandemic there is little volume - hence prices of cartridges are high. Clay Pigeon shooting is and always has been an expensive sport, but once volumes go up prices will come down. But as prices come down you shoot more, so the bill remains the same!

Its like reloading rifle cartridges. I can go and buy 20 factory rounds. Use five to zero and the rest on deer.

Or I go and buy a box of bullets and a tub of powder and use at least 20 or 30 rounds to find a correct load - but now my loads cost me much less than factory I regularly need to check my load / zero / each batch, which uses up my powder so I need to buy more, which means ......

Before I loaded my own I winced at the cost of each round so I never shot many.

 

[kes]

BASC's favourite clay ground - Catton Hall, (of MP fame) is also not equipped for shot recovery and has no embankments although it is hilly, more than half the stands are in a wooded area.

 

[Apthorpe]

Prices will come down. At moment due to pandemic there is little volume - hence prices of cartridges are high. Clay Pigeon shooting is and always has been an expensive sport, but once volumes go up prices will come down. But as prices come down you shoot more, so the bill remains the same!

You believe that? The price would need to drop 40% just to break even with lead. I'd be delighted to bet you the difference on the cost of a slab that steel and biodegradable wad won't be cheaper than lead any time in the next four years.

I don't follow your logic about the pandemic affecting cartridge prices either. Why does that affect steel but not lead cartridges?

 

[Liveonce]

When in recent memory has the price of cartridges ever come down, this as the volume goes up prices will come down just does not hold water. Their has been 7million new shooters in the USA and the price of ammunition, primers, powder etc has shot up because demand is out pacing supply.

And I believe if the EU and the U.K. went totally non toxic their would not be enough steel shot to go around so prices would go up not down