Ha! Well penetration is key with boar so I guess they'd be good.
I was due out on the boar in the FoD next weekend but cancelled due to this bloody virus
EU ban on lead ammunition for airguns, shotguns and rifles
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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I was due out on the boar in the FoD next weekend but cancelled due to this bloody virus
I used to shoot clays at a private shoot on a farm. Which changed hands. The new owner decided to go organic and specialise in rare breed cattle, but was very keen to keep the shoot. When the Soil Association inspected it, they were insistent that we stop shooting with lead because inevitably the cattle would ingest some shot, and unlike humans, absorb it whilst chewing the cud. We had already been using only fibre wads, to avoid any problems of the cattle eating them.
So we had to find an affordable lead free fibre wad alternative, fortunately there was one (only one), Gamebore Super Steel competition load 24gms 7.5 steel shot with a fibre shot cup which they claimed could be used in any gun, steel proofed or not, providing half choke or wider, due to the thick fibre cup that that totally enclosed the shot so it never touched the barrel. It was also loaded in transparent cases so you could see if the shot had gone rusty in improper storage. Very well thought through.
We had to order it in sufficient quantity to last our season, I think they only did a run a few times/year. Some years later they discontinued it in the fibre shot cup version, presumably lack of demand for this specialised load, so the shoot had to close. Prior to this the club ammo was Gamebore Blue Diamond 28 g lead, fibre wad, or whatever else in fibre wad. No the Super steel at first seemed not as good as the lead, so we had to adjust the trap layouts initially, but as we got used to it and adjusted our leads we found that we could shoot it almost as well. And it put us all on a level playing field, which was good. They patterned well (lots more pellets than lead, for the same mass) Also it was slightly less expensive !
In the interests of science, one of the members even put a box through a beautiful old damascus barrelled piece, to no apparent detriment.
AFAIK there is still no steel ammo with fibre wad available in the UK. The focus seems to be on "biodegradable" eco wads, which are not suitable. Until they have actually degraded in weeks or months ? they still pose the same danger to the cattle as plastic and litter the ground.
Such a shame that Gamebore did not develop this line with fibre cups for any old gun, but I see no reason why ordinary fibre wads could not be used in a steel proofed gun with suitably durable barrels.
The cups are still available from ClayGame for reloaders, 12 gauge only, but AFAIK not in factory ammo.
www.claygame.co.uk
Also steel shot is not AFAIK not manufactured in the UK, ISTR that it mostly comes from France, and there can be supply issues, which I suppose will only get worse unless production capacity is increased. Then there are the CIP regulations, which limit the velocity and momentum of CIP nations' ammo to rather anaemic levels compared to what is available in other territories and has been used safely for many years. This needs to be reviewed.
I think that there is a long way to go before BASC's "voluntary" lead phaseout for shotgun cartridges becomes practical for all uses, no matter what they might have been led to believe by UK manufacturers. And IMO the degradable eco wads are not a substitute for fibre. Personally I will not use plastic wads of any description unless there is no choice.
So we had to find an affordable lead free fibre wad alternative, fortunately there was one (only one), Gamebore Super Steel competition load 24gms 7.5 steel shot with a fibre shot cup which they claimed could be used in any gun, steel proofed or not, providing half choke or wider, due to the thick fibre cup that that totally enclosed the shot so it never touched the barrel. It was also loaded in transparent cases so you could see if the shot had gone rusty in improper storage. Very well thought through.
We had to order it in sufficient quantity to last our season, I think they only did a run a few times/year. Some years later they discontinued it in the fibre shot cup version, presumably lack of demand for this specialised load, so the shoot had to close. Prior to this the club ammo was Gamebore Blue Diamond 28 g lead, fibre wad, or whatever else in fibre wad. No the Super steel at first seemed not as good as the lead, so we had to adjust the trap layouts initially, but as we got used to it and adjusted our leads we found that we could shoot it almost as well. And it put us all on a level playing field, which was good. They patterned well (lots more pellets than lead, for the same mass) Also it was slightly less expensive !
In the interests of science, one of the members even put a box through a beautiful old damascus barrelled piece, to no apparent detriment.
AFAIK there is still no steel ammo with fibre wad available in the UK. The focus seems to be on "biodegradable" eco wads, which are not suitable. Until they have actually degraded in weeks or months ? they still pose the same danger to the cattle as plastic and litter the ground.
Such a shame that Gamebore did not develop this line with fibre cups for any old gun, but I see no reason why ordinary fibre wads could not be used in a steel proofed gun with suitably durable barrels.
The cups are still available from ClayGame for reloaders, 12 gauge only, but AFAIK not in factory ammo.
Fiber Shot Cups
Fiber Shot Cups for use with Steel Shot, to manufacture full Bio safe shotgun cartridges.
www.claygame.co.uk
Also steel shot is not AFAIK not manufactured in the UK, ISTR that it mostly comes from France, and there can be supply issues, which I suppose will only get worse unless production capacity is increased. Then there are the CIP regulations, which limit the velocity and momentum of CIP nations' ammo to rather anaemic levels compared to what is available in other territories and has been used safely for many years. This needs to be reviewed.
I think that there is a long way to go before BASC's "voluntary" lead phaseout for shotgun cartridges becomes practical for all uses, no matter what they might have been led to believe by UK manufacturers. And IMO the degradable eco wads are not a substitute for fibre. Personally I will not use plastic wads of any description unless there is no choice.
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
The red and green come through the same hole so the carcass isn't opened any more.
parkyboy
Well-Known Member
Ok so the sale of any ammo containing lead is stopped in say 2025 by the simple action of not producing it anymore...so the next step is to ban its use in any shooting/hunting situation and adhere to the EU directive...so my question is how would this ban on its use be policed and by who...?..the police cant deal with serious crime due to lack of man power etc..are they now going to have wellies issued to them...
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
If you read the full text of the articles I have linked to above you will see that in populations of the studies there is very clear difference in levels of metals in the blood between those who do not have leukaemia and those who have a diagnosis.
So for lead, those without leukaemia have on average virtually no lead in the blood, whereas with leukaemia have on average 25 nmols/litre.
The suggestion of the study is that a metal score can act as very good biomaker for the liklihood of developing leukaemia. So somebody with elevated levels should be monitored.
The challenge with Leukaemia, and in particular Acute Myeloid Leukaemia is that it sits at low levels and can really only be diagnosed once it is too late.
The causative effects are not clear, but the thesis is that precence of heavy metals create an environment for mutations to occur - whether it is that they cause the mutation, or prevent the immune system from tackling the mutations is unclear.
There is significant ongoing work to fully understand this. With Leukaemia, chemo therapies do work, but usually it is only a matter of weeks or months before the disease reappears.
Early studies with removing heavy metals in combination with chemo are showing significantly improved outcomes. Most of this work is still unpublished and is ongoing.
spannulman
Well-Known Member
I don’t think people should panic about this. just because someone there is pushing for this doesn’t mean it will happen.
the hunting lobby across Europe is stronger than it is here at home, and I would expect FACE to fight it. I remember in the 90s as a motorcyclist fearing the proposed ban on bikes over 100bhp. It was a German MPs idea i think, I can’t recall his name. But it suited BMW as they only made bikes up to that level and it was seen as ‘you don’t need more than that ‘ or somehow limiting bikes to 100bhp would make them safer. But, despite it gaining legs for a while, it fizzled out and was canned.
these things can be defeated with facts, evidence,science.
the hunting lobby across Europe is stronger than it is here at home, and I would expect FACE to fight it. I remember in the 90s as a motorcyclist fearing the proposed ban on bikes over 100bhp. It was a German MPs idea i think, I can’t recall his name. But it suited BMW as they only made bikes up to that level and it was seen as ‘you don’t need more than that ‘ or somehow limiting bikes to 100bhp would make them safer. But, despite it gaining legs for a while, it fizzled out and was canned.
these things can be defeated with facts, evidence,science.
spannulman
Well-Known Member
Of course, I can display schoolboy levels of naivety and still work on the basis that our police officers are not corrupt, if someone says they will do something they will. Just the other day, I had an email from an African gentleman who has asked me to help him store several billion dollars for him which, he assures me, is 100% legit. Why would a former government minister from a strife torn country lie about that?
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Most of you lowland stalkers put bloody great gashes down the middle of 'em. Perhaps a career in surgery awaits...
Have you had more deer as runners since you converted to copper or has it been similar to lead? What bullet do you use and what did you change over from?
Barnes started selling all-copper bullets in the 1980, they were designed to perform better than lead, and having used them they do.
When a better product comes along the market moves towards it.
Lead has lost the PR battle, arguing about it merits on here might be "fun", I hope everyone who has posted that the use of lead bullets should continue has also written to Waitrose pointing out the folly of the lead free stance and provided the science to convince them they are wrong?
Hands up if you have done that, please post Waitrose’s replies
When a better product comes along the market moves towards it.
Lead has lost the PR battle, arguing about it merits on here might be "fun", I hope everyone who has posted that the use of lead bullets should continue has also written to Waitrose pointing out the folly of the lead free stance and provided the science to convince them they are wrong?
Hands up if you have done that, please post Waitrose’s replies
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Waitrose should be free to sell whatever venison they like, and to specify whatever conditions they choose in their purchasing policy. I support their right to do what they have done. However, many of us take a different stance and should be similarly free to choose.
I shoot my own, they are free to stipulate what conditions they like.
The market is not following a better product - if non-lead was superior, we certainly would be using it and every manufacturer would have been making non-lead agaes ago. The manufacturers are adapting and refining non-lead projectiles to try and achieve parity with lead, only because they are hedging their bets that non-lead will be forced upon shooters. For them it's an arms race to try and replicate lead based as much as they possibly can, to stay in the game. It's more expensive and not as good, health effects very highly debatable
BMW were frightful cheaters back then. Pushing for a 100bhp limit and severe anti-tampering laws, homologation of only approved tyres, exhausts etc. and physical blocks to prevent most from fiddling. But yet when I bought my K1 in 1989 with allegedly only 90 something PS, I later found that it would do 165mph on the flat, (GPS reading, not the speedo though that was spot-on, no exaggeration from it) On a racetrack my lud
, and everyone knew that the K1 actually put out around 125 PS, and with a £50 chip change (easy diy job and literally you unplugged the chip from its convenient socket and minutes later you had 150 plus). Now where did that new chip code come from ? I have my suspicions.Actually being a serial BMW owner I was invited to the launch at Thruxton (first time there, very fast and very flat, even with lots of cones set up to show us the corners and where to brake) it took some learning, where after some escorted selection in the mornings sedate perambulations, those of us who passed muster were let loose to do our worst. Excellent place, no barriers or tyre walls, just miles of flat grass to runoff into (which was encouraged if we felt we had over-cooked things) Towards the end of the day those of us left were offered a go on a "special" one, goodness me, what a difference. An d the lunch was quite superb, they hadn't stinted on the catering.
There were also fun and games with the prototype R1100 GS on an obstacle course, the instructor (from the factory) was about 7 feet tall and built with it, unbelievable skills, mostly he just wheelied it around. None of us came close and it ended the day pretty banged up, but no one seriously injured. What a laugh. Bought one of those too, and still have it. Carburettors, no CAN bus, its all been downhill since then.
Still have it btw.
Only ten on the road and 33 SORNEd (mine being one) as of Q3 2020 according to https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/bmw_k1
But I digress.
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StephenToast
Well-Known Member
I avoid opening them up as much as I can until I have them at a larder (garage) where I can do it cleanly.
Recently you can't get a vehicle onto the land as it's so wet. Roe and Muntjac I'll put in a roe sack but fallow I have to drag, might be 400yds or more across mud.
Granted not as far as you upland boys but the potential to make a mess of a carcass is there.
Even in a tray mud gets everywhere.
I just remove the green through the thinnest cut possible then cut the diaphragm, reach in and sever the oesophagus and windpipe as far forward as possible. Red offal comes backwards out the same hole as the green and I can leave a couple of extra kilos behind.
I used to open the neck and tie off the oesophagus but I don't do that now as I found I very very rarely got green in the carcass from the oesophagus anyway versus mud, grass and shite all in the neck. If I were to open the neck I'd do it as high as possible and as small as possible so any contamination can be cut out when removing the head.
A friend of mine showed me how he does that and it's very neat.
Similar in terms of runners really but to be honest if I body shoot I will aim to break a shoulder, ideally two anyway. Always have.
Federal Premium 150gr in lead is what I used for years.
Most recently I have been using RWS HIT 165gr
both in .30-06
Costs more but apart from that I am happy with it.
I think I might start homeloading one day which increases the availability of bullets.
I thought this was a suspiciously small number.
Google revealed that US factories alone produced 41 billion rounds. Remington alone produced 14 billion.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Definitely worth doing so, particularly with .30cal where the list of options is so long. I use Nosler BTs, Nosler AB, and Sierra MK in my .308, all of which shoot pretty much to the same POI at 100m. I don't use non-lead in the UK, but I do shoot a lot of Barnes TSX (.375) at my place in Moz. They are devastating on heavier game, but can over-penetrate a bit (compared to lead) on lightly-built antelope. That's why I asked you about runners. I will look at RWS HIT. Thank you.
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
I'd have started homeloading long ago if it wasn't for one inhibiting factor... I'm lazy as hell.
RWS do a semi fragmenting round as well, might be worth a look if you are worried about penetration.
I see there are a couple of other fragmenting non-lead bullets available nielsen sonic something has been recently advertised on here and I saw some Lehigh defense stuff. I'd try that but... Laziness. The HIT is working for me and I find less bruising so I retain more meat, even with shoulder shooting.
Is Non-lead compulsary in Mozambique? Or are you using them there for performance?
CarlW
Well-Known Member
The reason I use Barnes in Moz is that it acts both as a soft and a solid, and saves having to carry both. For instance, hunting buff, most people put a soft at the top of the magazine, with three or four solids underneath it. The TSX can do both jobs. It also expands pretty well on, say, a kudu (for rations) but has enough penetration to defend against bad-tempered elephants (even though it wouldn't be your first choice). As said before, it's less good on small/light game (for me).
Alan, another member on here, is playing with Lehigh and sounds very positive so far.
I am going to stick with lead in the UK for now but will explore copper at some point. However, I am unwilling to be bullied into it by poor science and eco-zealotry. I have a big problem with choices being removed from shooters, and - tediously I am sure for our more conciliatory members - do my best stubbornly to resist every single change society seeks to foist upon our community.
Ade8mm
Well-Known Member
Well good. More power to the argument though I fear the politicos are more concerned with soundbites and polishing their green credentials for an easy populist win rather than entering reasoned debate (and that applies across the board - not just this lead thing).
Such is the crock-of-shite world we all find ourselves living in.
And they wonder why people have problems with sanity
("mental-health"- as it is now conveniently labelled)
They need to look a little closer to home.
Feck 'em all.
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StephenToast
Well-Known Member
That's really interesting. Thanks for posting that.
I have no knowledge whatsoever of Africa. I've hardly left East Anglia. I went to Norfolk once... Never again.
I am sure if you went out in Norwich on a weekend you'd see some angry elephants that would take more than Barnes TSX to stop them, especially once they've been on the blue WKD.
I don't think your standpoint is unreasonable. I was resistant when we had to change over for wildfowling. That was forced upon us before the alternatives were ready and the results were shocking. What we have now is as good and in some instances better than the cartridges I was shooting before the lead ban. Albeit far more expensive.
I changed over because a friend of mine said he was getting on with it and it was worth trying I like how the HIT performs and I have stuck with it.
Tin airgun pellets were a mistake online purchasing. They work. I am not too worried what happens when this tin runs out. If I can get the same stuff again great. If not no bother.
I guess with rifle shooting. If a total lead ban came in tomorrow, for me I wouldn't care. I'm already there mostly, I am ahead of where I was when the lead shot ban came in for the foreshore so if an all out lead ban is a stealthy way to attack shooting as some people have suggested then it won't work.
equally if I went to the gun shop looking for more non-lead ammo and they didn't have it in stock I'd go back to the federal without too much bother. (Although I usually order ahead of time to avoid that happening.)
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