EU Withdrawal Agreement....

[shakey jake]

First the legal ramifications, there are none, just up and go, anyone who wants to leave can, any immigrants not working and paying tax get slung out.
We no longer offer hand outs to immigrants, we no longer threat them on the NHS, those in prison get slung out and deported, we bill their country for the costs.
We go back to trading with the rest of the world as we did before the common market, if we can actually remember how to make anything.

As for not understanding, try this, if you dont understand, please feel free to leave as well.
We fought two world was to free europe from oppression, we won, just in case there was a doubt. I and thousands of others voted out because we want one rule again.
No other reason, dont care about the financial problems we have been threatened with as they are at best a guess, nobody actually knows.
Our (un)elected traitors in charge are after one thing only, getting as much cash as possible for as little actual progress as possible.

Neil.

by unelected, who do you mean? may? the house of lords? the queen?
shakey

 

[enfieldspares]

Ah...tis true that SJ! Those Lords on their green leather benches.

Where I live has elected a Tory MP since the consituency was created. In fact it's the tenth highest, or so, majority of any Tory MP. So whether I vote, or not, or whom I vote for makes no difference...save ONLY to decide which of (about 10,000 votes behind) the Labour or Liberal Democrat candidate is in second place.

But in the European Parliament my vote...as it's by proportional representation...does and has made a direct difference to which MEPs get elected from each party's list. It's also worthwhile noting that no matter where he's stood for the Westminster Parliament that Farage has never been elected by anybody.

 

[enfieldspares]

Meanwhile I'm off to Northamptonshire to democratically decide which of the pheasants and partridges they put over use I'll choose to shoot!

 

[User00025]

Only if the members agree.

They didn't agree in 1939 but it still happened!

 

[deeangeo]

The majority are opposed to hunting, does that mean that this is what the government must deliver and that we can no longer enter the debate?

Well, if they have a referendum on hunting, the majority likely would vote against it.
But, a referendum is NOT a legally binding check on the populations thoughts, so our ‘wonderful’ politicians are not obliged to deliver on what the public decides in such a referendum.
So, as always, politicians can side step any issue as long as it’s not a legally binding one e.g. Votes in General/By-elections.

However, as in the case of leaving the EU referendum it appears the result can be actioned if politicians so decide.
Personally, I shall be delighted for this nation when we’re out, but hey, what do I know!

 

[User00035]

Hard brexit is financial/social suicide.

Why?

Explain in detail with facts not supposition. Explain also how the 92% of planet Earth which is not in the EU are socially and financially impoverished by their exclusion?

 

[reloader54]

rather than quote cherrypicked parts I'll just leave this here for those that wish to inform themselves.

EU military has started and we must escape – Veterans for Britain

 

[Hornet 6]

by unelected, who do you mean? may? the house of lords? the queen?
shakey

I mean most of the governments we have had in the past 30/40 (about how long I have actually cared one way or the other) years or so.
It's like this, I'm a simple soul who votes for the man or women in charge of the party I think will do the least harm.
If that man or women leaves that party, or steps down/ is thrown out of that party we should have a general election.
So when'Call me Dave' said he would do whatever the public voted to do, decided rather than keep his word two things should have happened.
Parliament should have announced that we, the UK had left the EU, and that we would also be having a general election next week.

Neil.

 

[Cottis]

Why?

Explain in detail with facts not supposition. Explain also how the 92% of planet Earth which is not in the EU are socially and financially impoverished by their exclusion?

It is widely recognised by major business and financial experts that no deal especially, will result in major financial heartache. The biggest businesses have been campaigning behind closed doors that it will harm business massively if we leave without a positive deal in place.

The experts, the businesses, the banks, Mark Carney, BOE and many more people who know way more than you and I all say the same thing. They are worried. They foresee issues.

So if this is the case and business falters, financial issues follow. Business makes less money, they pay less tax. They make redundancies, more people on welfare, unemployment rises, less money to spend in shops. What happens then? Prices are deemed to be too high (which they are already) so inflation rises. To combat that, interest rates rise. That means people cannot afford to borrow money to buy houses which are already at exorbitant prices. This then reduces house prices. Ok, so that might a good thing in a way but not for the millions who are racked up to the hilt on mortgages that exceed the true value of their homes. If they cannot afford to pay, homes are repossessed. What then? More demand for welfare?

It is a vicious cycle.

Not once have I said the country would fall in to an abyss forever and a day. All things correct eventually and I agree with you that in time, we would happily trade with the rest of the world including Europe with as much success or failure as before. That is obvious. I don't need to explain how the rest of the world trades with success. I know they do, as will we eventually.

But how long will it take? I suppose what it comes down to is how long people are prepared to take the carnage in exchange for the benefits that they think will come from leaving the EU. Already it is £39bn in payments just to leave and that is not taking in to account the rise in costs of trading post leave. We have just had a decade of terrible public funding levels which has harmed most of us in some way. This will never help short to medium term.

Sounds like you think the benefits will be worth all the hardship and I do not think that at all.

 

[User00025]

There are two points amongst many others that I cannot reconcile in the proposed deal.
Irish Border: If we can't agree how to do things now how the …. can we sort it at some later date.
£39 Billion for agreements made. How much are the Buildings erected and paid for by the EU (including us) worth. Surely they must pay us for the value of our contribution. Idiots are saying you cannot have a clean break after forty years B...…. . We had a world war, twenty odd years later after all the hassle over Genocide etc and what it cost us (forgetting the First war) we cleanly and calmly made friends again and joined the Common Market. That was some break from enmity so why not a clean one the other way.

 

[Hornet 6]

But how long will it take? I suppose what it comes down to is how long people are prepared to take the carnage in exchange for the benefits that they think will come from leaving the EU. Already it is £39bn in payments just to leave and that is not taking in to account the rise in costs of trading post leave. We have just had a decade of terrible public funding levels which has harmed most of us in some way. This will never help short to medium term.

Sounds like you think the benefits will be worth all the hardship and I do not think that at all.

Well if we had said we're out the day after the vote we would be two years down the road to recovery.
As far as payment to leave, no we shouldn't pay a cent.
The benefits of leaving, that one is easy, screw the money, we take back control of our country, we take back control of our borders.
We also get to chuck the unwanted out of our country without having to ask a foreigner for permission to do so.
Borders between England and the rest of the UK, thats easy as well, if they want to to remain in the EU they can, all they need to do is
financially stand on their own two feet and start using the euro which they can pay for with their own income.

Neil.

 

[JTO]

Not once have I said the country would fall in to an abyss forever and a day. All things correct eventually and I agree with you that in time, we would happily trade with the rest of the world including Europe with as much success or failure as before. That is obvious. I don't need to explain how the rest of the world trades with success. I know they do, as will we eventually.

Sums it up!

 

[Hereford]

We always had control of our borders - we chose not to exercise it. It’s what happened when certain UK citizens turned their nose up at the work that others weren’t too entitled or lazy to do.

 

[User00035]

It is widely recognised by major business and financial experts that no deal especially, will result in major financial heartache. The biggest businesses have been campaigning behind closed doors that it will harm business massively if we leave without a positive deal in place.

The experts, the businesses, the banks, Mark Carney, BOE and many more people who know way more than you and I all say the same thing. They are worried. They foresee issues.

So if this is the case and business falters, financial issues follow. Business makes less money, they pay less tax. They make redundancies, more people on welfare, unemployment rises, less money to spend in shops. What happens then? Prices are deemed to be too high (which they are already) so inflation rises. To combat that, interest rates rise. That means people cannot afford to borrow money to buy houses which are already at exorbitant prices. This then reduces house prices. Ok, so that might a good thing in a way but not for the millions who are racked up to the hilt on mortgages that exceed the true value of their homes. If they cannot afford to pay, homes are repossessed. What then? More demand for welfare?

It is a vicious cycle.

Not once have I said the country would fall in to an abyss forever and a day. All things correct eventually and I agree with you that in time, we would happily trade with the rest of the world including Europe with as much success or failure as before. That is obvious. I don't need to explain how the rest of the world trades with success. I know they do, as will we eventually.

But how long will it take? I suppose what it comes down to is how long people are prepared to take the carnage in exchange for the benefits that they think will come from leaving the EU. Already it is £39bn in payments just to leave and that is not taking in to account the rise in costs of trading post leave. We have just had a decade of terrible public funding levels which has harmed most of us in some way. This will never help short to medium term.

Sounds like you think the benefits will be worth all the hardship and I do not think that at all.

So global corporatism doesn't like the idea of change to its cosy arrangements and losing the stranglehold on anti-competitive regulation which it currently enjoys while the European Commission are in its pockets. I understand that all right and my heart bleeds.
The idea that the UK's credit rating will crash, interest rates will soar, millions of homes will be repossessed and we'll end up looking like Venezuela is nonsense.
Such things can happen whether we're in the EU or not, it all depends on what action, or inaction, is taken by the government of the day. If we have a Corbyn government it will happen as surely as night follows day. If we have a government that embraces our new freedoms and opportunities to cuts taxes, boost inward investment and compete aggressively with our European rivals, we will fly.

And rivals they are. The EU bloc have never been our partners. Aside from wanting to control our money and our territorial waters (90% of the "EU's" fishing grounds belong to the UK), use our labour market as a dumping ground for the Eurozone's mass unemployed and at the same time insert an intravenous drain into our cash economy which is then syphoned off across eastern Europe, they want us in the EU so they can hold us close, suffocate and constrain us and prevent us becoming an economic powerhouse on their doorstep with which their protectionist, unproductive, stagflating economy could never compete. That is what terrifies them most, the thought of the UK's unchecked success that a complete severance of our association with the European Project will bring once their foot is removed from our jugular.

The very fact that this terrifies them is in itself a better indicator of our economic prognosis outside the EU than all the paid-up "experts" they can wheel on to recite the script of Project Fear.

And as for social suicide, the rest of the world, the other 92%, including and especially the unfairly jilted Commonwealth, is queuing up to restore normal relations with a UK free from the oppressive oversite of the EU.
There has even been talk of a free movement of labour treaty between a sovereign UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. 65 million English speaking, economically parallel brethren. Doesn't sound like social suicide to me. Bring it on.

 

[bowji john]

So global corporatism doesn't like the idea of change to its cosy arrangements and losing the stranglehold on anti-competitive regulation which it currently enjoys while the European Commission are in its pockets. I understand that all right and my heart bleeds.
The idea that the UK's credit rating will crash, interest rates will soar, millions of homes will be repossessed and we'll end up looking like Venezuela is nonsense.
Such things can happen whether we're in the EU or not, it all depends on what action, or inaction, is taken by the government of the day. If we have a Corbyn government it will happen as surely as night follows day. If we have a government that embraces our new freedoms and opportunities to cuts taxes, boost inward investment and compete aggressively with our European rivals, we will fly.

And rivals they are. The EU bloc have never been our partners. Aside from wanting to control our money and our territorial waters (90% of the "EU's" fishing grounds belong to the UK), use our labour market as a dumping ground for the Eurozone's mass unemployed and at the same time insert an intravenous drain into our cash economy which is then syphoned off across eastern Europe, they want us in the EU so they can hold us close, suffocate and constrain us and prevent us becoming an economic powerhouse on their doorstep with which their protectionist, unproductive, stagflating economy could never compete. That is what terrifies them most, the thought of the UK's unchecked success that a complete severance of our association with the European Project will bring once their foot is removed from our jugular.

The very fact that this terrifies them is in itself a better indicator of our economic prognosis outside the EU than all the paid-off "experts" they can wheel on to recite the script of Project Fear.

And as for social suicide, the rest of the world, the other 92%, including and especially the unfairly jilted Commonwealth, is queuing up to restore normal relations free from the oppressive oversite of the EU.
There has even talk of a free movement of labour treaty between a sovereign UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. A coming together of 65 million English speaking, in economically parallel brethren nations. Doesn't sound like social suicide to me. Bring it on.

Oh so well put - bravo

 

[Chasey]

Why?

Explain in detail with facts not supposition. Explain also how the 92% of planet Earth which is not in the EU are socially and financially impoverished by their exclusion?

1: We have very few if any trade agreements with the rest of the world that do not link to agreements as EU members. Even our WTO access is linked to our EU status. As a result we will need to renegotiate trade deals with several hundred countries starting immediately we leave the EU. As the average trade negotiation takes 5 -10 years we will be caught in a worst case scenario WTO trade situation for a very long time . Trade deals cost millions of pounds. Negotiating new trade deals across all our trading partners will cost billions.

2: Trade deals with an entity like the EU with 742million potential clients are quite obviously better than trade deals that can be negotiated with a small island of 60 million people. As a result the new trade deals will be worse than the existing deels we have now via the EU. People always talk about EU trade and forget our trade deel with China for example, is an EU trade deel.

3: Just in time ordering has revolutionised manufacturing and driven down costs in terms of logistics and storage. Frictionless borders have made just in time ordering a possibility. The reintroduction of hard borders will cripple this service and force manufacturers back to the days of stock holding which involves warehousing, logistics and finance. This will significantly impact on production costs and is the reason behind many other issues like the projected insulin shortage issue. Holding stock is not cost effective or efficient.

4: The financial services sector is critical to the UK economy. We get 28 billion pounds in tax revenue from the Financial services sector. 39% of that came from the EU mainly from something called the Euro Clearing. This will be lost to us when we leave the EU at a tax loss of 11 billion pounds. A 44% of financial trade goes to the EU and we benefit from something called the Financial Passport, or Bank Passport. This will be lost post Hard Brexit and the total cost to the British tax payer of this and the Euro clearing will be in the region of 16 billion pounds a year

5: The Irish border issue is not only a trade issue but also a direct breach of the Good Friday Agreement which brought a level of peace to Ireland. It is likely a collapse of the GFA will follow a hard Brexet

6: Problems with in the import of foreign labour will cause big problems for the NHS and Farmers. The NHS is already indicating staff shortages of 100,000 people due to immigration issues exacerbated by Brexit. The prediction is a shortage of 350,000 staff in the next three years. We do not have the skilled staff to cover these positions in the UK and we have not got the infrastructure to provide training. As a result this will need to be set up for future requirements but the cost would be significant and the time delays damaging

7: Even with trade agreements in place and ignoring the loss of just in time imports, the border controls will massively impact trade with Europe causing delays which cause costs. As we speak they are putting in provisions to use the M26 as a lorry park to cope with the back log of lorries trying to get through Dover and the Chanel Tunnel rail link. This in turn will cause chaos on the roads of Kent.


8: In order to get big business to continue to have factories in the UK we will have to offer significant tax incentives so the company's can off set logistical and import export tax losses. This will have to come from the tax payer

9: Regardless of tax deals for very large companies line Nissan (who's deel was so awful its top secret) any medium sized to small companies will likely decide that the problems with import export in the UK outside a free trade agreement will cause increased costs and they will look to locate business to countries within the EU which will impact on employment in the UK

10: The IMF calculates the cost of Brexit to be in the region of £6000.00 for every working family in the UK. The Government estimates of the cost of a no deel Brexit are 2.5% GDP reduction or 26 Billion pounds



I could go on for another 10 if you like?

 

[Chasey]

I believe you're right brother . I will say one thing , the EU army being proposed has raised a few eyebrows in Canada . A lot of Canadians gave their lives dealing with that mentality during two world wars , we're a bit sensitive about that .
As to where I'm at , I'm up on the Thai , Myanmar , Laos border at the moment watching the Mae Kong river go by . Myanmar , another good reason to thank god you live in a civilized country , any civilized country . Have a good day everyone .

AB

Whilst i want to make it clear, an EU army has sod all to do with Brexit (the UK would undoubtabley put forces into an EU army even if we left) and is very unlikely in the near future, The point is we are simply dwarfed by the likes of USA China and Russia. SO to be playing with the big boys we need to unite our military into an EU army.

Germany is not now nor ever has been in charge of the EU in fact despite being the biggest in terms of population it has the same voting power as France and Italy and formally the UK and some restrictions put on it as to how it can use that power. IE if any of the big four veto a constitutional vote it cant go through. BUT if France Italy and the UK decide on something, then Germany cant veto it.

 

[bowji john]

Those of you who read the rather self indulgent thumb nail sketch of myself (some months ago) know I was borne in Rhodesia

Part of my upbringing prior to national service during the bush war was shoved off to a boarding school in the UK - an experience I loathed to my core

It taught me one lesson I've never forgotten however

Far from the ''Toffs'' being a load of talent-less, over privileged chinless wonders - they (many of them) are highly intelligent, highly capable and highly motivated

They are also imbued with a sense of an almost almost god given right to rule over the plebs

This is not limited to the Toffs - Though disguised by talk of equality and class war - the same attitudes prevail in such organisations as the Unions and Religion

These ruling classes have no intention of allowing us self determination and this latest manifestation of Global Corporatism is a drive for a new form of control

The EU is not a democratic organisation - yes there is an EU Parliament - but it is at best a fig leaf of democracy to hide where the true power lies - The EU Commission and their corporate puppet masters

You only need to listen to some of these power crazy commissioners to understand that they fully understand that the current manifestation in Europe has been arrived at by slight of hand

Several have openly admitted that had they been honest with the peoples of Europe - they would have been slung out long ago.

They know that there is a point where - even if the people(s) wake up - it will be too late - Individual freedom will be gone

We have one last throw of the dice - one last chance to extricate ourselves from a new European tyranny

Yes it will cost and I guess it will be disproportionately paid by the youth

However they either pay now or they will pay a hundred fold later

 

[User00025]

1: We have very few if any trade agreements with the rest of the world that do not link to agreements as EU members. Even our WTO access is linked to our EU status. As a result we will need to renegotiate trade deals with several hundred countries starting immediately we leave the EU. As the average trade negotiation takes 5 -10 years we will be caught in a worst case scenario WTO trade situation for a very long time . Trade deals cost millions of pounds. Negotiating new trade deals across all our trading partners will cost billions.

2: Trade deals with an entity like the EU with 742million potential clients are quite obviously better than trade deals that can be negotiated with a small island of 60 million people. As a result the new trade deals will be worse than the existing deels we have now via the EU. People always talk about EU trade and forget our trade deel with China for example, is an EU trade deel.

3: Just in time ordering has revolutionised manufacturing and driven down costs in terms of logistics and storage. Frictionless borders have made just in time ordering a possibility. The reintroduction of hard borders will cripple this service and force manufacturers back to the days of stock holding which involves warehousing, logistics and finance. This will significantly impact on production costs and is the reason behind many other issues like the projected insulin shortage issue. Holding stock is not cost effective or efficient.

4: The financial services sector is critical to the UK economy. We get 28 billion pounds in tax revenue from the Financial services sector. 39% of that came from the EU mainly from something called the Euro Clearing. This will be lost to us when we leave the EU at a tax loss of 11 billion pounds. A 44% of financial trade goes to the EU and we benefit from something called the Financial Passport, or Bank Passport. This will be lost post Hard Brexit and the total cost to the British tax payer of this and the Euro clearing will be in the region of 16 billion pounds a year

5: The Irish border issue is not only a trade issue but also a direct breach of the Good Friday Agreement which brought a level of peace to Ireland. It is likely a collapse of the GFA will follow a hard Brexet

6: Problems with in the import of foreign labour will cause big problems for the NHS and Farmers. The NHS is already indicating staff shortages of 100,000 people due to immigration issues exacerbated by Brexit. The prediction is a shortage of 350,000 staff in the next three years. We do not have the skilled staff to cover these positions in the UK and we have not got the infrastructure to provide training. As a result this will need to be set up for future requirements but the cost would be significant and the time delays damaging

7: Even with trade agreements in place and ignoring the loss of just in time imports, the border controls will massively impact trade with Europe causing delays which cause costs. As we speak they are putting in provisions to use the M26 as a lorry park to cope with the back log of lorries trying to get through Dover and the Chanel Tunnel rail link. This in turn will cause chaos on the roads of Kent.


8: In order to get big business to continue to have factories in the UK we will have to offer significant tax incentives so the company's can off set logistical and import export tax losses. This will have to come from the tax payer

9: Regardless of tax deals for very large companies line Nissan (who's deel was so awful its top secret) any medium sized to small companies will likely decide that the problems with import export in the UK outside a free trade agreement will cause increased costs and they will look to locate business to countries within the EU which will impact on employment in the UK

10: The IMF calculates the cost of Brexit to be in the region of £6000.00 for every working family in the UK. The Government estimates of the cost of a no deel Brexit are 2.5% GDP reduction or 26 Billion pounds



I could go on for another 10 if you like?

No need! God only knows how we ever existed as a country without the EEC. We must have had proper people in this country then, not those who want to be ruled by others. Still I suppose it's only to be expected from those who want that like yourself. Get some steel in your back not jelly.

 

[african jack]

Whilst i want to make it clear, an EU army has sod all to do with Brexit (the UK would undoubtabley put forces into an EU army even if we left) and is very unlikely in the near future, The point is we are simply dwarfed by the likes of USA China and Russia. SO to be playing with the big boys we need to unite our military into an EU army.

Germany is not now nor ever has been in charge of the EU in fact despite being the biggest in terms of population it has the same voting power as France and Italy and formally the UK and some restrictions put on it as to how it can use that power. IE if any of the big four veto a constitutional vote it cant go through. BUT if France Italy and the UK decide on something, then Germany cant veto it.

So you think its a good idea for the EU to have the power to commit our troops to any conflict they chose you are totally deluded