I currently have a restricted FAC with 2 rimfires. I have only recently started stalking and within a couple of months intend to ask for a variation to add a .243. I have permission to shoot on 3 decent size permissions were I have fox and other vermin. My question is as my ticket won’t be unrestricted for a long time how do I go about gaining permission to use any rifle I’m granted to obtain on paid stalks on land not in my area or on my file with my firearms office. Is it a matter of booking a stalk and then informing the office and seeing if the land is calibre cleared and added to my file. Sorry if this is such a basic question and any help would be appreciated.
FAC Question
- Thread starter Herb64
- Start date
shakey jake
Well-Known Member
when i added a 243 my ticket came back open, i get on really well with my feo, id try calling and explaining what you want and why, they may ask for proof of a booked stalk but thats not the end of the world gives you a reason to get one booked
shakey
shakey
I was told it would be at first renewal that it would be considered for becoming unrestricted. I’ve not had it long. I’d planed to ask for this in a year or two. Perfectly happy with the land I shoot on regularly just wanted advice on paid for stalks with the ticket I have at the moment.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
In Kent we just needed to prove suitabuuility of opening up the cert.
So within a year id done DSC1 and shot 30+ deer and got it opened up with a recommendation from my Mentor
I run a syndicate now and have got several member on to open cert a few of them from day one with a restriction they can only shoot "open" ie unsupervised on grounds managed by me.
I believe you do not need an open cert for guided stalks. You don't even need a FAC when using an estate rifle so why the need for an open cert?? Its a grey area but i for sure was never asked and the law may have changed since then (2012-2015)
Simple answer is ask your guide?
So within a year id done DSC1 and shot 30+ deer and got it opened up with a recommendation from my Mentor
I run a syndicate now and have got several member on to open cert a few of them from day one with a restriction they can only shoot "open" ie unsupervised on grounds managed by me.
I believe you do not need an open cert for guided stalks. You don't even need a FAC when using an estate rifle so why the need for an open cert?? Its a grey area but i for sure was never asked and the law may have changed since then (2012-2015)
Simple answer is ask your guide?
Chasey
Well-Known Member
Deffo the case in kent but some areas have weird rules.
I asked the FAO to open up a piece of land in Sussex for me and was told they dont do that any more (no man power) and just give open certs off the bat for new stalkers???? He offered to open up the certs for any one i had a problem with but sadly they came from other jurisdictions
Erik Hamburger
Well-Known Member
It is not so much a question of TIME (x-years), more a question of EXPERIENCE (X-stalks/outings). Therefore someone who is out stalking /hunting 3-4 times p.w. can request his FAC to be opened after a relative short time, 1-2 years. Someone who goes twice a year doesn't really have the experience to have an open FAC after 5 yeas..! Make your case to your FEO or Licensing Manager and you'll find they usually are perfectly reasonable.
Orion
Well-Known Member
And that's an 'open' FAC is it?
FYI 'Open' does not equate to 'unsupervised' shooting on any land, it relates to the removal of any territorial restriction limiting the FAC holder to shooting (unsupervised even
) on land that has been approved by the police for that calibre rifle. What you have described is even worse than simply having a territorial condition and far more limiting.If the FAC has a territorial condition on it then it is incumbent upon the holder to ensure that any land he shoots over is cleared by the police for that calibre - that includes any land he may be guided over. For the 'Estate Rifle' if all parties satisfy the criteria and he borrows a rifle, then it is lender's FAC condition(s) that apply. If that FAC is 'open' then all well and good, if it has a territorial condition attached then it must be adhered to.[/QUOTE]
Closed cert - you can only shoot YOUR rifle on piece of ground if plod have determined that the land is suitable for that caliber, and if you have permission to shoot there.
Open cert - you can shoot your rifle on any ground that you have permission on and where you determine that it is safe to shoot.
For an estate rifle you can shoot whatever the stalker has and is allowed to use themselves. I agree that this can lead to some slightly daft situations where you have a 6.5 and cant use it because the ground hasnt been cleared, but the stalker has a .30-06 and you can use that.
If you are after a deer legal centerfire then you will need to prove you have access to shoot deer, either via a permission or via a booking for a paid stalk.
If you have a paid stalk booked and have a closed ticket then ask your guide what caliber the land is cleared up to before you go. You dont have to add the land to your ticket and the police dont do that anymore in any case, they just have the standard "Deer and AOLQ, open/closed" condition.
You can also email the local FLO and ask them if the land you are stalking on is cleared for the caliber you have - I've done this in the past where I have wanted to clarify, though you can run into issues when the person who's ground it is has an open ticket and has never had the land cleared because they've never needed to do so.
That said most professional outfitters will have had their ground cleared and should be able to give you that information. If they're an established outfitter with a good reputation then personally I would be inclined to take their word for it, but if you're going with your mates best friends brother Dave then I'd be inclined to drop the FLO a line to double check! They should have the land on file if its been cleared and be able to give you the nod pretty easily.
Open cert - you can shoot your rifle on any ground that you have permission on and where you determine that it is safe to shoot.
For an estate rifle you can shoot whatever the stalker has and is allowed to use themselves. I agree that this can lead to some slightly daft situations where you have a 6.5 and cant use it because the ground hasnt been cleared, but the stalker has a .30-06 and you can use that.
If you are after a deer legal centerfire then you will need to prove you have access to shoot deer, either via a permission or via a booking for a paid stalk.
If you have a paid stalk booked and have a closed ticket then ask your guide what caliber the land is cleared up to before you go. You dont have to add the land to your ticket and the police dont do that anymore in any case, they just have the standard "Deer and AOLQ, open/closed" condition.
You can also email the local FLO and ask them if the land you are stalking on is cleared for the caliber you have - I've done this in the past where I have wanted to clarify, though you can run into issues when the person who's ground it is has an open ticket and has never had the land cleared because they've never needed to do so.
That said most professional outfitters will have had their ground cleared and should be able to give you that information. If they're an established outfitter with a good reputation then personally I would be inclined to take their word for it, but if you're going with your mates best friends brother Dave then I'd be inclined to drop the FLO a line to double check! They should have the land on file if its been cleared and be able to give you the nod pretty easily.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
And that's an 'open' FAC is it?
FYI 'Open' does not equate to 'unsupervised' shooting on any land, it relates to the removal of any territorial restriction limiting the FAC holder to shooting (unsupervised even
OK thanks, good point as the use is limited to our grounds but without the need for said ground to be approved nor that the stalker is supervised in any way If i pick up a new un opened bit of land next week, said shooter / ember can shoot it unsupervised on his current cert.
As you rightly say that's not open
sikamalc
Administrator
So you are saying or implying that you have been given the rights by the police to say yay or nay as to whether a new novice member with little or no stalking experience what so ever can stalk a new area you may get without any police clearance of the ground, as you claim to have been told this is ok?
So, as a closed ticket is authorised by the chief constable of that county, and the basic onus is on him if there is an accident for cleared ground on a closed ticket, that in effect has now been given to you to authorise ground to be suitable for stalking by a novice or closed ticket holder without any other stalker being in attendance ? not that this would make any great difference. If this is what you are saying and have or are doing so this is frankly frightening and totally wrong.
I would add that if any ground you have is not cleared and someone with a closed ticket is travelling to and from that area, or are actually on it, they stand the chance of being prosecuted and loosing their FAC.
Having spoken to and having good links with the authorities, and I am not saying anymore than that you are jeopardising the FAC of any of your members who has a closed ticket. Furthermore you have NO right to tell anyone that you are able to declare any ground fit to stalk. I am aware of the circumstances surrounding your claim and cannot say anymore than that.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
Yes thats 100% correct
Some of them are member on here so i am sure you will have no problem confirming this
If there's any issue with their own ruling you'd think they'd mention it? They after all have all the relevant information
On re reading i should clarify it's me personally who got these conditions, but the senior stalkers in the teem who share the load of passing stalkers fit to stalk alone. I am only one of those people
PS Id need to check but i have got this condition from Kent, Sussex, Surrey the Met and (i think) Essex
On the issue of Closed grounds? IE grounds the police have refused to grant a shooting license for? I haven't come across one yet but if i did Id probably not take it on for the syndicate anyway.
as an example i just took on a new permission in Dorking. I did the usual risk assesment and deemed the land unfit for syndication as the shot safety was very very limited. Steve and i will deal with his deer problem and no one else unless Allan or will fancy a go. Steve is used to stuff like this profesionaly and i trust myself implicitly
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Chasey
Well-Known Member
"I would add that if any ground you have is not cleared and someone with a closed ticket is travelling to and from that area, or are actually on it, they stand the chance of being prosecuted and loosing their FAC."
WOW quite a claim. I am no lawyer but a certificate which grants the owner "the right to shoot on DAGSE land and all lands controlled by DAGSE" is somehow committing an offense by A traveling to a DAGSE ground and B: shooting on a DAGSE ground??
The wording seems pretty clear to me and the condition would be pointless if it didn't mean exactly that but I bow to your better judgment
Ill suspend all shooting or non open certificate members on your say so until each of the four police forces who wrote that condition down have clarified it.
Sorry lads.
WOW quite a claim. I am no lawyer but a certificate which grants the owner "the right to shoot on DAGSE land and all lands controlled by DAGSE" is somehow committing an offense by A traveling to a DAGSE ground and B: shooting on a DAGSE ground??
The wording seems pretty clear to me and the condition would be pointless if it didn't mean exactly that but I bow to your better judgment
Ill suspend all shooting or non open certificate members on your say so until each of the four police forces who wrote that condition down have clarified it.
Sorry lads.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
"Furthermore you have NO right to tell anyone that you are able to declare any ground fit to stalk"
OK took a while for my solicitor to respond but apparently I do on the basis I carried out the qualified risk assessment based on my certification. If i claim its OK for people i deem fit to shoot based on my own assessment of the land and their ability? I can indeed say this but i carry the responsibility for it. This liability is off set by the rules and conditions for the site which are based on the risk assessment, signed by said shooter and to which he must adhere. Ther's further assumed skill / knowledge indemnity by his own DSC1 certification. (if applicable)
This assumes the police have deemed the FAC holder legal to shoot on any lands owned or controlled by DAGS WITHOUT the need for cleared lands as the condition seems to imply to me and every one else whose read it.
Land thats been deemed unfit to shoot by the police is a very gray area which i haven't looked into and hope never to have to look into
Still as said all my closed cert members have been banned from shooting till this is properly sorted out.
They are not happy about it but i am sure they will be grateful if your correct
OK took a while for my solicitor to respond but apparently I do on the basis I carried out the qualified risk assessment based on my certification. If i claim its OK for people i deem fit to shoot based on my own assessment of the land and their ability? I can indeed say this but i carry the responsibility for it. This liability is off set by the rules and conditions for the site which are based on the risk assessment, signed by said shooter and to which he must adhere. Ther's further assumed skill / knowledge indemnity by his own DSC1 certification. (if applicable)
This assumes the police have deemed the FAC holder legal to shoot on any lands owned or controlled by DAGS WITHOUT the need for cleared lands as the condition seems to imply to me and every one else whose read it.
Land thats been deemed unfit to shoot by the police is a very gray area which i haven't looked into and hope never to have to look into
Still as said all my closed cert members have been banned from shooting till this is properly sorted out.
They are not happy about it but i am sure they will be grateful if your correct
Thank you for your excellent reply it’s information is much appreciated. Very helpful along with other help from a member here via PM.
sikamalc
Administrator
Mark,
Without prejudice and with no disrespect to you or your syndicate members, your curtailing their stalking activities on the ground is nothing to do with me or this site, that is your decision. I think to a certain extent you are missing the point I am trying to make.
A closed ticket is usually worded such. The rifle and ammunition to which this certificate relates shall be used for zeroing and shall be used for the taking of lawful quarry on land that the holder has permission to shoot on and has been cleared for that calibre by the chief constable of the county. The onus is to a certain extent on the Chief Constable should there be an accident or issue as they have deemed the ground suitable and large enough.
An open ticket is worded roughly the same but does not include the chief constable of the county. In this instance the police have granted this as the holder has enough experience, skill and safety that allows them to manage and stalk ground safely.
I assume all the ground your syndicate shoots over is cleared ground, if it is then there is no issue. The ground cleared is kept on the police data base.
In your post you refer to the fact that you as an individual have been given the rights/authority to judge whether or not any new ground you get can be stalked safely. For yourself and any other open FAC holder that is fine, as the police consider an open ticket holder having enough experience to shoot and approach the ground safely at all times.
However it does not give you the right to say that a closed ticket holder may also stalk the ground unaccompanied with their rifle as it has not been cleared by the police. If any closed FAC holder were to attempt this on her/his own and be in place that is against the condition of their ticket they could face prosecution. If they are accompanied by an open ticket holder who has authority to shoot on the land ,the closed FAC holder can use the estate rifle system. One would also assume that the landowner would not be happy if they discovered they had a complete novice running around their land with a rifle, it may also make their insurance void if god forbid there was an issue.
I get a number of new stalkers booked with me every year. Many ask for a receipt to say they have been with me to secure evidence of their stalking. In every case when applying for their FAC their FEO has contacted me to ask if the ground I have is cleared. Most ground on the police data base is cleared for up to 30 calibre, but it varies I assume. I have also had a number of FAC holders requiring the conditions on their FAC to be changed from target shooting to stalking, and again they have been issued with a closed ticket. In general this is usually opened after 5 years.
I had one young lad turn up about 4 years ago to stalk his first deer with a 308 that was only conditioned for use on commercial or military ranges where adequate insurance was in place. Needless to say after looking at his ticket I informed him he had stepped outside the conditions of his FAC. He had to use my estate rifle and took his first deer. He now stalks a great deal and has an open ticket.
The point I am trying to make is that I do not know of anyone that has been given authority other than the police to clear ground for a stalker with a closed ticket, which you claim to have.
Having spoken to my colleague and joint major owner of this site JAYB, who happens to be a retired police officer we are both of the same opinion. Also as owners of this site we are to a certain extent liable for the contents. When such an issue as this is raised it does not help young stalkers and can be misleading in our opinion.
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TH4
Well-Known Member
It appears to me that if the wording on your members certificates only allow them to shoot on land operated by DAGSE it is even more restrictive than a closed ticket as they can shoot nowhere else even if the land is cleared for that calibre. If this is indeed true perhaps you could post a screenshot of one of your members certificates showing just the conditions page then nobody can disbelieve you. I am sure many on here would be interested to see the actual wording. I would also be interested in knowing if the relevant police forces actually put in writing that you are able to clear land.
sikamalc
Administrator
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