Fed up to hear: NO! I ALREADY HAVE SOME ONE!

[Sam355]

Over the past 4 years I tried talking to about 9 farm and land owners in the south east to get permission to shoot foxes (nevermind deer!), same answer from all owners: No I already have someone managing vermin/foxes on my land!
If it really is that difficult to obtain permission to shoot, how do you guys get to keep your rifles and not lose them when it`s time for FAC renewal?! Never mind trying to get an open ticket for a beginner like me??!!
I also browsed the web and this site for Syndicates to join and read posts like: The queue to join a decent syndicate starts from Surry and ends somewhere up north in Scotland!
After spending all my savings on a rifle, I`m wondering if I made a mistake and should have just stuck to the accompanied stalks using the estate rifles?!

 

[bewsher500]

don't give up

most stuff goes by word of mouth

PM on way

 

[AndrewT059]

As above dont give up, i think ive tried 209 farms, but about 2 years ago i had a call from a landowner to sort out his deer problem, its not a big farm, but ive shot about 30 roe/muntjac of it( with a good number still there) free of charge,and i get to keep the carcass, and it wasnt one of the farms that i tried, i was recommended to him by another farmer,

Also get talking to some local gamekeepers, help out with beating, lamping, etc, this is the way i do anyway, with good sucsess

 

[deerstalker.308]

It does take time, there can be a lot of trust involved, imagine if someone you never met came and asked you if they could discharge firearms in your back garden, I think we would all think twice, sometimes you strike lucky, but I know for one, it took me about 3 years to find my first permission for deer, I've held a shotgun certificate for about 10 years now and still don't have any rough game shooting, I have a small amount I can shoot pigeons on but that's it. As has been said by others in previous posts once you get the first, likely as not more will follow, neighbouring land owners etc, be patient mate.

 

[rogue trader]

Hi Sam355,

Turning up at Farmer's doors is never a good thing. You may get lucky and get offered the chance to lamp on their land but 99% of the time they will simply say "thanks, but no thanks". There are lots of reason why they say no, they may already lamp/stalk the farm themselves which they enjoy and don't want someone taking that away from them or they have someone already doing the pest control for them. The other reason for a straight out No is down to trust. You've just turned up at his door and asked to wander around his land with a high powered rifle at night. If he lets you do this he is taking a big risk given that he doesn't know you, you could turn up on the first night with 3 trucks and 5 mates and drive all over his farm without any understanding of what to shoot and where to drive and not drive. You could drive all over crops and before he knows it your mates are turning up without you. If the farmer allows you to shoot on the land and then you turn out to be a bad apple (I'm sure you're not) and the police turn up due to an accident or something else then he is the one who will have to answer questions and if he is a tenant farmer he could end up in front of the landowner having to explain why he allowed you to shoot on his land. He could end up having to justify his own FAC to the police due to an accident.

In order for you to get permission you need to show the farmer or landowner that you are serious and trustworthy. You can do this in two ways, find out who is managing their land and ask to go out with them. They will then see first hand whether you know your stuff and are trustworthy and this could result in you working alongside this chap on a number of farms getting lots of shooting and stalking in. You'll then get to meet the farmers and if the other pest manager decides to retire or move then you are in line to take over. The other is to get to know the farmer. Do you have a friend who can introduce you to the farmer instead of just turning up. That way the farmer is meeting you through a person who he already know and therefore is more likely to hear what you have to say and not just shut the door in your face.

Hope this is of some help.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Sam, just approach the search for land as a business marketing campaign.
It is all about personal relationships, introductions, recommendations and building trust.
A good way into getting land, for example, is to built a relationship with a farm that has a retail shop on site to sells their produce. Established yourself as a regular good customer paying good money (cash is best) for their produce and come in regularly so they get to know you. Through the usual smalltalk establish who is in charge and find out their names. Built a relationship of trust. Then do your background research into the land and farm and access etc using various internet resources and mapping sites.
Then, and only then, mention about the rabbits/foxes/deer/pigeons you always spot on their land, how much damage they must do, how much money they must loose, and casually mention you do a bit of shooting and that you would love to help them out keeping their vermin under control. Once they have said 'Yes, ok than' as it will be difficult for them to refuse a good trusted local customer) make sure you draft a permission letter so they just have to sign it, deliver the letter by hand and wait for them to sign it and hand it back to you. Quote insurance/H&S reasons for the written permission requirement.
Don't even mention the deer yet - at this point we are looking at rabbits, pigeons and maybe foxes.
Once you have been on a farm for a few years and have shown your commitment and have results, only than could you try to add deer to your list. Most landowners/farmers are very secretive and protective of the deer so don't expect to get deer shooting permission just like that.
And once you are established on a farm you are likely to be introduced to the neighbouring farmers and things can start rolling from there.

Other methods, some or all you can do concurrently with the above suggestion:

1. Simply pay for a shooting lease. Generally a lot.
2. Network and befriend other stalkers to get invitations and more experience, offer to help but not shoot. The shooting bit will come later.
3. Join a beaters team of a local shoot and you will be surprised by the amount of people you meet, in particular under the beaters, who are often very much more advanced and experienced with guns and rifles than the 'guns' of the shoot. Making friends there will open many doors for you, eventually.
4. Join a target/rifle club where you can use your deer rifle. The practice and range where you can check your zero under controlled conditions is always useful and again it offers many networking opportunities.
5. Enroll on courses (DSC1, LANTRA) as you meet like minded people who will offer you opportunities, and the paper qualifications also help when asking for permission. In fact in many cases you need qualifications now before the landowner will even talk to you.

Just be aware that a hard-won permission can be easily lost if you show no results, don't show up, do things against their wishes and bring other people on the land without their specific permission. Some permissions you can loose simply because someone else puts lots of cash on the table. So don't put all your chickens in one basket.

Good luck - if you show tenacity you will get those permissions!

 

[Si]

From the perspective of a landowner.... I wouldn't want someone I don't know from Adam wondering around my place at night with a firearm. You need to start with shooting pigeons or rabbits during the day, then say you'd like to have a go at the rats too. Once you've built up a raport tell him you wouldn't mind having a mooch at night after foxes.

Be honest, farmers like honesty... don't make it sound like you're doing him a favour because you're not.
Don't tell him you can sort his pigeon problem cos you can't, it's impossible...
Say "I'm after some shooting permission if there's any going" Don't feed him a pile of crap like "I've noticed you have a problem with rabbits eating crops" he will already know that and he will know that his yeild is the least of your concern, you just want some shooting.

 

[timbrayford]

First join a rifle club if you haven't already done so, this should secure your position regarding your FAC & rifles. Regarding somewhere to shoot either buy a lease if lucky and rich enough or join a team of beaters/ helpers on some shoots. The latter in time will open a lot of doors for you. atb Tim

 

[6pointer]

I think Timing helps and if the farmer really has some one then the correct thing is to walk away. Go to a sheep farm in Jan -Feb Time this is when they are worrying about lambs go to a crop farm just as the barley wheat etc is starting to ripen tell them you will sort out pigeon etc. Farms work normally on what is happening at the time and what is being a problem at the moment or very near future. If you go at the end of April to ask about fox shooting expect to get told to clear off. Think before you go dress appropriately and listen to the boys that have a lot of land and spend no money getting it.
PS if you want shooting then contact all the local woodland companies certainly Scotland has more than enough for all.

 

[badbob]

Im afraid its getting more and more popular.
more and more new hunters trying to get land
to shoot over.

There is enough for all, but its not evenly distributed.
supply and demand will mean you will have to pay a premium
for shooting unless you are lucky.

 

[pip]

Sam, just approach the search for land as a business marketing campaign.
It is all about personal relationships, introductions, recommendations and building trust.
A good way into getting land, for example, is to built a relationship with a farm that has a retail shop on site to sells their produce. Established yourself as a regular good customer paying good money (cash is best) for their produce and come in regularly so they get to know you. Through the usual smalltalk establish who is in charge and find out their names. Built a relationship of trust. Then do your background research into the land and farm and access etc using various internet resources and mapping sites.
Then, and only then, mention about the rabbits/foxes/deer/pigeons you always spot on their land, how much damage they must do, how much money they must loose, and casually mention you do a bit of shooting and that you would love to help them out keeping their vermin under control. Once they have said 'Yes, ok than' as it will be difficult for them to refuse a good trusted local customer) make sure you draft a permission letter so they just have to sign it, deliver the letter by hand and wait for them to sign it and hand it back to you. Quote insurance/H&S reasons for the written permission requirement.
Don't even mention the deer yet - at this point we are looking at rabbits, pigeons and maybe foxes.
Once you have been on a farm for a few years and have shown your commitment and have results, only than could you try to add deer to your list. Most landowners/farmers are very secretive and protective of the deer so don't expect to get deer shooting permission just like that.
And once you are established on a farm you are likely to be introduced to the neighbouring farmers and things can start rolling from there.

Other methods, some or all you can do concurrently with the above suggestion:

1. Simply pay for a shooting lease. Generally a lot.
2. Network and befriend other stalkers to get invitations and more experience, offer to help but not shoot. The shooting bit will come later.
3. Join a beaters team of a local shoot and you will be surprised by the amount of people you meet, in particular under the beaters, who are often very much more advanced and experienced with guns and rifles than the 'guns' of the shoot. Making friends there will open many doors for you, eventually.
4. Join a target/rifle club where you can use your deer rifle. The practice and range where you can check your zero under controlled conditions is always useful and again it offers many networking opportunities.
5. Enroll on courses (DSC1, LANTRA) as you meet like minded people who will offer you opportunities, and the paper qualifications also help when asking for permission. In fact in many cases you need qualifications now before the landowner will even talk to you.

Just be aware that a hard-won permission can be easily lost if you show no results, don't show up, do things against their wishes and bring other people on the land without their specific permission. Some permissions you can loose simply because someone else puts lots of cash on the table. So don't put all your chickens in one basket.

Good luck - if you show tenacity you will get those permissions!

+1. The only thing I'd add to that is I got my first bit of shooting at 15 by offering to help with the hay bailing one summer on a local farm. Also, met the farmers nephew and he's still my best mate 29 years later.

 

[6pointer]

You can always go to the young farmers doo,s and grab your self a farmers daughter make sure her dad has plenty of acres and your set for life

 

[Sam355]

Wow! I can see some excellent points mentioned here! Thanks a lot! Looks like I need to change my approach a little.

 

[Mungo]

Something that is also worth trying is golf courses.

They almost all have rabbit problems, and will usually jump at the chance to get rid of them. Once you establish a reputation for reliability and safety on a golf course or two, it can help to open other doors.

As with farmers, though, it is important to approach in the right way.

It is a lot like getting a first job: you either need experience or connections, and sometimes getting either just seems impossible.

 

[BunnyDoom]

Stick with it Sam, does take years! I got my first permission after 4 years, but was another couple before I got anything of a decent size and I can't shoot deer on any of them!

My one and only deer permission is tiny (single high seat shoot), and believe it or not I was reccomended to the landowner by my firearms officer (he mentioned me when the landowner was renewing his shotgun licence)!

Excellent advice on this thread so far

 

[Buckbones]

Sam
You also have to contend with guys like myself who is a farmers son who shoots from rabbits to deer and the fact that I also cull deer as part of my job, word of mouth from farmer to farmer I get asked.
Then there's the guys who have game shoots on the land they will probably have permission for the vermin to.
Then there's the land owners who do not wish anyone shooting.
There is one other option and I may get flak for saying this.
Offer to pay for the ground to shoot vermin. I have small area with munties on and I have a financial agreement with the owner not much but he's happy and so am I.
There is more guns than land. Where I live the local police are keen how many permits are on a piece of land.
so as it has been said before keep going and hope your lucky.

 

[Sam355]

Thanks all for your replies and those who sent PMs.
I think the fact that there is less farms and land to shoot on in the south east of the country is also a contributing factor to my failure. Reading the replies builds some hope that the time when I do get permission may come one day! Looks like a lot of others were in my place one day and didn`t give up and were eventually successful.

 

[shortshot]

Do research, do observation, put some time in..... if you can identify a problem occurring and not being addressed your more than 1/2 way there.
If you see poorly rape with gas gun out your much more likely too get a foot in the door at that time for pigeon.
If you spot deer near young trees, or fallow bucks in cereal crops or headland rabbit grazing you'll be much more likely too get the time of day than cold calling asking for vague "shooting." Thats why the observant local always has the advantage because he has true picture of what goes on. Thats the way it is and thats the way it should be; the only advantage someone from more than 10 miles away has is mebbe money. So keep local for best results or try and buy sport further afield.

 

[kev.rem700]

Its all down to trust alot of quads chainsaws ect

have been getting nicked in my area. If a stranger turns up

at the door the farmer is thinking, who are you are you scoping the place out

Farmers come from a close nit comnunity.

I work on a farm so they all no me so i dont have much bother getting land to shoot

ATB

kev

 

[Gazza]

Don't know how many farms are in your area but 9 farms in 4 years is not really trying. When I was chapping doors I would call at more farms in a morning. Getting some business type cards with your name and phone numbers can be helpful. Even if a farmer says no, leave a card just in case. It does work.
Cold calling at farms/landonwers is the way to get your foot in the door but you must be prepared to take many many no's whilst looking for that one yes. Farmers are usually warm and friendly people who like a blether but catch them at the wrong time and even although the land is awash with vermin you will get a no. Turn up looking like rambo/a smart ass/somebody who knows nothing of the countryside and you will also be told to leave. Get to know a bit about the farm you are intending to approach. What do they produce? Beef/lamb/cereals/etc Learn about what that farmer might be interested in. Cereal/beef prices, effects of current weather, etc. Have something to talk about. Farmers are suspicious of allowing strangers access to their land. I have one very good farm that over the years prior to me getting it has had a few supposed vermin controllers on it but all were thrown off. Shooting deer instead of vermin, using strainer posts as targets, leaving gates open, taking out all sorts of undesirables, injuring stock and damaging crops, churning up fields with 4x4s, coursing etc Would you blame this farmer for saying no to everybody. When you eventually get a farm work as hard as you can and be seen to be doing so, that is the way to more farms through recommendation. My tips:

1. Get out and chap as many doors as you can.
2. Don't drive up farm access roads at 100mph. They will see you and you have already created the wrong impression.
3. If you see the farmer is busy come back at another time. This can be a bit tricky as farmers are always busy. Knowing what you can disturb and whats a definate no no takes a bit of learning and experience. Arriving and being able to help in some way is a huge advantage point but make an arse of it and you can just turn around.
4. Look respectable and capable. Give the impression that you can be of service and do the job without causing problems.
5. Have something else to talk about and not just "can I shoot your land"
6. If you are lucky enough to get a yes, do all that you have said you would do. Sort out the foxes/rabbits/crows/pigeons and do it regularly so that you are seen to be on the job.

Best of luck