Firearms certificate application

[markm81]

Hi All,
I just wanted to get some of your advice to what happened recently. I live just outside Ayr and recently applied for my firearms certificate, I sat my DSC 1 a couple of months ago and passed it, and had a few stalks also, Police Scotland came back to me saying that I dont have enough experience and they won't be issuing me a firearms certificate and to submit an application again in the later future when I have had some experience under my belt Has anyone had this happen to them, or am I just the unlucky one

 

[SimpleSimon]

Hi All,
I just wanted to get some of your advice to what happened recently. I live just outside Ayr and recently applied for my firearms certificate, I sat my DSC 1 a couple of months ago and passed it, and had a few stalks also, Police Scotland came back to me saying that I dont have enough experience and they won't be issuing me a firearms certificate and to submit an application again in the later future when I have had some experience under my belt Has anyone had this happen to them, or am I just the unlucky one

The only grounds for refusal of a certificate are lack of good reason or concern for public safety.

Write to whoever is in charge of licensing in your region and ask them why they believe your experience is so insufficient that you'd pose a risk to public safety, considering you've already passed a nationally-recognised qualification which contains a safety module and shooting test.

Tell them you intend to appeal their decision if they can't evidence specifically how they came to that risk-based decision.

Also contact whatever shooting organisation you're a member of.

 

[Stalker62]

@markm81

This from Police SCOTLAND's own website:-

Permission to possess, or to buy a firearm or shotgun will be granted to an individual who is assessed by the Police.

They will need to not pose a threat to public safety and have good reason to own the firearm or shotgun.


You appear to have demonstrated 'good reason' - a future booking may assist with this.
Do you pose a threat to public safety? Do Police Scotland think you do? Are they using the 'inexperience' argument to constitute a threat to public safety?

On this; and perhaps matters are different in Scotland, but they are asking for 'good reason' to own a shotgun?

I am not a fan of 'bombarding' FLDs with emails, but this appears to warrant a polite one, asking them to expand on this decision, and for them to explain just exactly what they are requiring, and what section of the Law/Policy they seek to rely on - as this will then best inform you (and your legal advisor) on what best 'next steps' to take.


@SimpleSimon has posted whilst I was banging the old keys. What he said.

 

[Riverwye]

Be a good idea to build a portfolio of evidence, did you show them your actual certificate of dsc1 and receipt from stalking outtings? Or was it just word of mouth?
Make a log, take photos, go on a Range open day, keep empty cases etc.. Even get a .22 rimfire/shotgun it all helps build the overall picture.

 

[Stalker62]

Be a good idea to build a portfolio of evidence...

Never a bad idea to keep a portfolio. FWIW (nothing) I keep a Game Book for every time I leave the house with a firearm. It is kept for my own records, and no FEO has ever expressed the slighted desire to look at it.

Range Days - important to keep a record. There is an 'expectation' of three uses a year for each 'target' firearm. Easy to fall foul of this. Ask me how I know. Make sure your 'admin." in 'on point'.

... keep empty cases etc...

Madness.

Keeping empty case (use primers is another one, one sees banded about) proves nothing; other that you collect empty cases and may be connected to these folk...



Let's not lose our heads over this. Painful as it is, there is no need to go making it worse than it needs to be.

 

[markm81]

Hi All,
I just wanted to get some of your advice to what happened recently. I live just outside Ayr and recently applied for my firearms certificate, I sat my DSC 1 a couple of months ago and passed it, and had a few stalks also, Police Scotland came back to me saying that I dont have enough experience and they won't be issuing me a firearms certificate and to submit an application again in the later future when I have had some experience under my belt Has anyone had this happen to them, or am I just the unlucky one I should have added that I gave them a photo copy of my DSC 1 certificate and also the receipts from previous stalks and range sessions.

 

[markm81]

@markm81

This from Police SCOTLAND's own website:-

Permission to possess, or to buy a firearm or shotgun will be granted to an individual who is assessed by the Police.

They will need to not pose a threat to public safety and have good reason to own the firearm or shotgun.


You appear to have demonstrated 'good reason' - a future booking may assist with this.
Do you pose a threat to public safety? Do Police Scotland think you do? Are they using the 'inexperience' argument to constitute a threat to public safety?

On this; and perhaps matters are different in Scotland, but they are asking for 'good reason' to own a shotgun?

I am not a fan of 'bombarding' FLDs with emails, but this appears to warrant a polite one, asking them to expand on this decision, and for them to explain just exactly what they are requiring, and what section of the Law/Policy they seek to rely on - as this will then best inform you (and your legal advisor) on what best 'next steps' to take.


@SimpleSimon has posted whilst I was banging the old keys. What he said.

I did send an email as suggested but just got the same answer. Get more stalks/ range training under your belt for experience. I have no criminal record or convictions to my name and at 44 years of age I dont intend to get any .

 

[markm81]

Be a good idea to build a portfolio of evidence, did you show them your actual certificate of dsc1 and receipt from stalking outtings? Or was it just word of mouth?
Make a log, take photos, go on a Range open day, keep empty cases etc.. Even get a .22 rimfire/shotgun it all helps build the overall picture.

As suggested I have kept everything from the targets from my range sessions to my receipts for my stalks etc and my DSC 1 certificate. All this was copied and sent along with my application also. Well at the time of applying I was still to sit my DSC 1, but after passing it my FEO asked me to email the picture of it so she could amend my application before sending it back to get the final checks done.

 

[Riverwye]

Probably best if you just apply for .22 or 17hmr now now. And submit a variation for centerfire later on.
Just think of when learning to drive you had to have a provisional licence with L plates before passing your full driving test.

 

[Liveonce]

Probably best if you just apply for .22 or 17hmr now now. And submit a variation for centerfire later on.
Just think of when learning to drive you had to have a provisional licence with L plates before passing your full driving test.

if the OP is only doing paid deer stalking, what justification will he have for a .22 or .17hmr?

 

[Migwados]

Sorry to hear about the bother you’re having with it…
As others have mentioned above, they’ll have to give you feedback on their decision, so just work with that once you have it?

Did they reach out to your membership liaison at your rifle club? They can usually back you up regarding which calibres you’ve used and your level of experience etc.

Feel free to make use of the app I created to keep track of your shooting sessions.
Totally free and can all be exported to spreadsheet quite easily.

Join the Shooting Diary beta

Available on iOS

testflight.apple.com

 

[Liveonce]

As I read the OP he is not a member of a rifle Club.

 

[SimpleSimon]

I did send an email as suggested but just got the same answer. Get more stalks/ range training under your belt for experience. I have no criminal record or convictions to my name and at 44 years of age I dont intend to get any .

Find out who's in charge and make sure you're dealing with them, not a case worker or administrator who doesn't have the authority to change the decision. If needs be, write directly to the chief constable and make sure you copy in the Police and Crime Commissioner. Start being a pain in the backside.

Ask specifically why they deem your level of experience to be a threat to public safety and get them to tell you in writing what level of training above and beyond the accredited qualification you already hold they deem to be acceptable.

Their job is, firstly, to determine whether or not you have a Good Reason to possess fireams. Clearly they think you do, or they'd have (rightly) rejected your application on those grounds.
Secondly, they must determine that you are not a risk to public safety, so their concern about your experience can only be based on that perceived risk. Their opinion about your experience is irrelevant, they have to prove on the balance of probability that you would be unsafe, and in doing so they'll have to explain why they don't feel the DSC1, which is the "industry standard" is adequate.

They enforce the rules, but they don't get to make them.

Obviously BASC can only act on behalf of members, but I wonder what @Conor O'Gorman makes of this in general?

 

[Migwados]

As I read the OP he is not a member of a rifle Club.

Maybe that’s the next step, then. My FEO told me they’re straight up not entertaining applications in Merseyside that aren’t members of home office approved clubs.
I don’t believe that’s 100% accurate, as you can obtain an FAC of your job requires it, but maybe she was just being specific to cases such as mine?
Can’t hurt to join one though

 

[VSS]

Maybe that’s the next step, then. My FEO told me they’re straight up not entertaining applications in Merseyside that aren’t members of home office approved clubs.
I don’t believe that’s 100% accurate, as you can obtain an FAC of your job requires it, but maybe she was just being specific to cases such as mine?
Can’t hurt to join one though

There is absolutely no need to be a member of an approved club in order to be granted a FAC, and absolutely no need for it to be a requirement of your job. All you need is "good reason", and recreational deer stalking (and other forms of shooting) as a hobby is a perfectly good reason.
Your Firearms Licencing dept are clearly messing about and abusing their position. I think it's a power trip thing for FEOs.

 

[timbrayford]

Appreciating that it may be too late for the OP but I'd strongly advise anyone seeking a grant or renewal to take out legal expenses insurance against such a police refusal. It may be that the OP has excellent grounds for appeal as detailed in the Firearms Act but realistically this requires a legal specialist in firearms law. SidebySide are one provider,I think that FieldsportsChannel may be another.

 

[Migwados]

There is absolutely no need to be a member of an approved club in order to be granted a FAC, and absolutely no need for it to be a requirement of your job. All you need is "good reason", and recreational deer stalking (and other forms of shooting) as a hobby is a perfectly good reason.
Your Firearms Licencing dept are clearly messing about and abusing their position. I think it's a power trip thing for FEOs.

They’re probably just playing fast and loose with the wording here:

“What is a 'good reason' to own a firearm?
1.6
Applicants should be able to demonstrate to the police that they require their firearm on a regular, legitimate basis for work, sport or leisure (including collections or research).”

Tbf if OP has demonstrated they’re regularly out stalking, done their DSC1 and has a record of regular range sessions, the grounds for refusal would need to be pretty solid.

When I had my SGC interview, I mentioned my eventual FAC application and was told “join a HO approved rifle club. We don’t approve applications that aren’t full members.”
The fellas I go stalking with don’t attend clubs, but they’ve been stalking for 30+ years and having permission to shoot over land probably negates the club membership.
Each region is different though. Appeal it and see what they come back with

 

[Dunwaters]

It looks like a policy decision by your police department to deliberately restrict firearms certificates.
Assuming that the police are perfectly aware of the grounds on which they may refuse a grant and again assuming that they are fully aware that the reason given to the applicant for refusing the grant does not meet the legislative threshold, then the police are also fully aware that an appeal of the refusal to grant would likely succeed.
They are primarily relying on you accepting their decision, not challenging it and going away.
Worst case scenario for them is that you make an appeal and are successful, they are instructed to issue the cert, best case is that you do as expected and let it drop, second best is that you challenge the decision but lose your appeal.
From the police point of view thats a risk free win, win, win strategy with no repercussions.

 

[timbrayford]

From H.O. Guidance 13.6:-
the chief officer should consider the application firstly “from the standpoint of the applicant rather than from that of a possible objector"

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Find out who's in charge and make sure you're dealing with them, not a case worker or administrator who doesn't have the authority to change the decision. If needs be, write directly to the chief constable and make sure you copy in the Police and Crime Commissioner. Start being a pain in the backside.

Ask specifically why they deem your level of experience to be a threat to public safety and get them to tell you in writing what level of training above and beyond the accredited qualification you already hold they deem to be acceptable.

Their job is, firstly, to determine whether or not you have a Good Reason to possess fireams. Clearly they think you do, or they'd have (rightly) rejected your application on those grounds.
Secondly, they must determine that you are not a risk to public safety, so their concern about your experience can only be based on that perceived risk. Their opinion about your experience is irrelevant, they have to prove on the balance of probability that you would be unsafe, and in doing so they'll have to explain why they don't feel the DSC1, which is the "industry standard" is adequate.

They enforce the rules, but they don't get to make them.

Obviously BASC can only act on behalf of members, but I wonder what @Conor O'Gorman makes of this in general?

As a rule I don't wish to comment on individual cases even in general terms and if the OP is a BASC member they should contact our firearms team for advice.