First Aid Training...Opinions please?

[AviatingJoe]

What I am gathering from this is that we don't want a "Rural First Aid Course" We want a "Rural/Remote Location Safety and Emergency Procedures Course"

As I've mentioned, I'm not looking to be making my kids inheritance out of this, I want to provide the sporting/stalking population with the knowledge to save another's life.

 

[Deutsch - Drahthaar]

Already done the EFAW 1 day course several times in the past through my employment and learnt the basics via powerpoint presentations. I have just competed the 3 day FAW again for my employment and came out with much knowledge and loads of hands on practical experience. I now know what to do if any family member (or anyone else) needs CPR and feel confident that I could keep them alive until the second aider arrives (ambulance).

The course covered many subjects in depth with 3 main practical assessments; CPR, recovery position and attending to a person with an injury that required hospital treatment.

lots of the skills learnt for the workplace are easily transferable out in to the field for stalking. The teacher only touched lightly on gun shot wounds but when I asked him later to revisit this area he was willing and went into depth further.

I don't think it will be long before the major forestry management companies make it compulsory for all lease holders and controllers to have the 3 day.

The 3 day course was only £151.00, good value for money and well worth it, I certainly recommend it.

DS

 

[timbrayford]

I certainly think that first aid training ought to be part of the school curriculum, that said it is not a skill that I have nor do I have any sort of aptitude for it. atb Tim

 

[AviatingJoe]

I am not looking to deviate from the FAW syllabus, but the FAW and EFAW subject matter is lacking in its level of detail for maintaining a fading casualty for a long time... I only know from having collected a lot of remotely placed casualties that could of been in better nick when we arrived if they had been attended to properly

 

[WAYNE DAVIES]

I done one a few weeks ago, well worth it.

 

[bogtrotter]

Thanks, just dipping my toe in the water at the minute.

Was that rural specific, away from easy rescue, difficult ground to extract over, bad weather, gun shot wounds, major lacerations / incisions, difficulty breathing in the middle of nowhere, heart attack without the option of fast ambulance access etc etc?

No it was a general first aid course, much of what is tranferable to remote situations.

However I have also done a course specific to mountain rescue which did cover all the points you mention including gun shot wounds, though these were only lightly touched on, in truth gunshot wounds are a rare occurance and the sad fact is someone shot with an expanding bullet as in a stalking situation is unlikely to survive regardless of the knowledge available.

 

[Heym SR20]

Just been at very scary video of a fall in North Wales. The BMC website has a lot of good information, and in its medical area is the following ver good advice

Mountain incidents: what to do?

Mountain first aid

 

[tackb]

a gunshot victim will have a much better chance of survival if treated promtly by someone with knowledge of even basic first aid , it would be a shame if a gunshot victim bled out for example from a limb wound because the only help there didn't know how to deal with bleeds and shock? expanding bullet or not!

 

[bogtrotter]

a gunshot victim will have a much better chance of survival if treated promtly by someone with knowledge of even basic first aid , it would be a shame if a gunshot victim bled out for example from a limb wound because the only help there didn't know how to deal with bleeds and shock? expanding bullet or not!

Of course you are right but as I am sure you are aware, its not only a case of bleeding out from an expanding bullet as the severe tissue damage caused resulting in massive shock to the system.

The more remote the situation the less chance of survival, in the case of a chest wound as the OP mentioned
the chance of survival is about nil.

In no way am I having a go at the op, and of course you would do what you can, and some knowledge is helpful,
but I don't think we should get too hung up on gunshot wounds which (1) we are unlikely to see and (2) And
unfortunately if we do in most cases there will be little we can do to help.

Far better to to learn to deal with thing in which we can make a difference severe cuts stab wounds etc. which are every bit as life threatening.

What is the biggest threat to life in remote areas?

Probably more people die of hypothermia than any other cause in remote areas, how many can recognise it and more importantly deal with it.

 

[tackb]

Of course you are right but as I am sure you are aware, its not only a case of bleeding out from an expanding bullet as the severe tissue damage caused resulting in massive shock to the system.

The more remote the situation the less chance of survival, in the case of a chest wound as the OP mentioned
the chance of survival is about nil.

In no way am I having a go at the op, and of course you would do what you can, and some knowledge is helpful,
but I don't think we should get too hung up on gunshot wounds which (1) we are unlikely to see and (2) And
unfortunately if we do in most cases there will be little we can do to help.

Far better to to learn to deal with thing in which we can make a difference severe cuts stab wounds etc. which are every bit as life threatening.

What is the biggest threat to life in remote areas?

Probably more people die of hypothermia than any other cause in remote areas, how many can recognise it and more importantly deal with it.

well i'm afraid i disagree with you , you are giving up even before your in the situation. any training can only help and i for one believe that it's not my decision wether they have a chance or not , and people have survived chest wounds.

i'm not saying we should all be trained to paramedic levels but i think it can only help if we all have some first aid training?

when we looked at first aid at my rifle club a doctor (club member) rightly said not to worry about injurys too much , the real issue looking at the club members was a heart attack ! we were more likely to need a de fib unit rather than wound dressings!

 

[AviatingJoe]

The more remote the situation the less chance of survival, in the case of a chest wound as the OP mentioned
the chance of survival is about nil

Is the exact opinion/view that makes further education even more important.

With regards to gunshot wounds never happening... having professionally attended the Derek Bird Whitehaven shootings... Need I say more.

 

[Apache]

we were more likely to need a de fib unit rather than wound dressings!

Disagree. Everyone who uses knives has cut them self at some point. You are not going to carry a 5kg AED up a hill stalking - that would be crazy. If you are alone and you have a heart attack you will probably die. If you sever an artery and know how to deal with the bleeding you will probably live. If you break a leg or twist and ankle and can get yourself help you will be ok. Equally if you can't get help, but can keep warm and wait that is ok too. Going up a hill in shirt sleeves with no gear is insane. Expect if out of phone signal you will be staying the night and prepare accordingly. A survival bag and something to eat and drink can make the difference between life and death. Make a fire to keep warm etc. Some painkillers can make the difference between an ankle you can't use and one you can hop on with a support bandage.

Realistically a gunshot wound is really, really unlikely. If you had to deal with one there would be an entry and an exist wound and you'd need a lot of dressings, fluids and help very quickly. I suppose you may have eye injuries to deal with due to an inadvertent blocked barrel. You'd have to try very hard to accidentally shoot yourself with a stalking rifle.

I suspect the most likely issues are:

* hypothermia
* serious bleeding
* sprains and breaks
* eye injuries

There are other things that it is worth being prepared for as a simple blister or headache can ruin your day. There is room for 'comfort' items.

Pack as little as you need that will cover the most likely eventualities. If you will never be more than 15 minutes from the car, have good phone signal and are stalking with buddies then that is probably very little. Scottish hill the requirements very different. There are elements of survival training that overlap.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Imo, the three day First Aid course without doubt would benefit yourself, family, friends, workmates far more than attending a remote first aid course for one day...

If the poll had included a choice for all those having used remote first aid it would be negligeable compared with those utilising the skills learned on the three day course.

If however youve done the above and wish to extend your knowledge i applaud that..

 

[tackb]

Disagree. Everyone who uses knives has cut them self at some point. You are not going to carry a 5kg AED up a hill stalking - that would be crazy. If you are alone and you have a heart attack you will probably die. If you sever an artery and know how to deal with the bleeding you will probably live. If you break a leg or twist and ankle and can get yourself help you will be ok. Equally if you can't get help, but can keep warm and wait that is ok too. Going up a hill in shirt sleeves with no gear is insane. Expect if out of phone signal you will be staying the night and prepare accordingly. A survival bag and something to eat and drink can make the difference between life and death. Make a fire to keep warm etc. Some painkillers can make the difference between an ankle you can't use and one you can hop on with a support bandage.

Realistically a gunshot wound is really, really unlikely. If you had to deal with one there would be an entry and an exist wound and you'd need a lot of dressings, fluids and help very quickly. I suppose you may have eye injuries to deal with due to an inadvertent blocked barrel. You'd have to try very hard to accidentally shoot yourself with a stalking rifle.

I suspect the most likely issues are:

* hypothermia
* serious bleeding
* sprains and breaks
* eye injuries

There are other things that it is worth being prepared for as a simple blister or headache can ruin your day. There is room for 'comfort' items.

Pack as little as you need that will cover the most likely eventualities. If you will never be more than 15 minutes from the car, have good phone signal and are stalking with buddies then that is probably very little. Scottish hill the requirements very different. There are elements of survival training that overlap.

i was referring to range use not hill stalking , sorry if i didn't make that clear ?

 

[bogtrotter]

Is the exact opinion/view that makes further education even more important.

With regards to gunshot wounds never happening... having professionally attended the Derek Bird Whitehaven shootings... Need I say more.

I will say it again I am not against what you are trying to do, but it now looks as if you are smudging the issue
First you say are offering a course for remote rural locations for people involved in stalking and country sports
you then mention Derek Bird.

Now thats a whole different ball game, thankfully thats something most of us will never come across and really don't think its relevant to what stalkers require.

This is a forum for stalkers first and foremost and discussing Derek Bird's victims is slightly misleading, while you may survive a shotgun wound depending on factors like range where the wound is etc, likewise quite a few people have been shot with .22s and survived,this is quite different from a wound received from a full bore centrefire rifle loaded with expanding ammunition, which is the type of wound that you would expect to find in a stalking situation.

May I be so bold as ask how many people you known of who have been shot in the chest with a full bore rifle loaded with expanding ammunition and survived, I am sure it will be very few.


I am not saying that gunshot wounds should not be covered in first aid, just that its well down the list of things we are likely to come across, and too many people are putting emphases on them.

 

[bogtrotter]

well i'm afraid i disagree with you , you are giving up even before your in the situation. any training can only help and i for one believe that it's not my decision wether they have a chance or not , and people have survived chest wounds.

i'm not saying we should all be trained to paramedic levels but i think it can only help if we all have some first aid training?

when we looked at first aid at my rifle club a doctor (club member) rightly said not to worry about injurys too much , the real issue looking at the club members was a heart attack ! we were more likely to need a de fib unit rather than wound dressings!

I would ask you the same question in your experience how many people have you known of to survive a chest wound from a full bore rifle loaded with expanding ammunition.

 

[cervus]

When Jelen offered this type of course,fully accredited to HSE Standards, utilising the one day EMFA Course modified for two days to allow for increased scenario training at a good price for stalkers/deer managers the take up was not brilliant as I recall....

 

[tackb]

Tell you what , how about you put a note in your pocket bogtrotter so I know not to give you first aid in the horrible event of you getting injured ? Particularly a chest wound ?

Fair enough?

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

I think its very noticeable what responses recieve a reply and what ones dont..

Im all for the training as said previously but...

Unless all those turning up have either a one day or three day first aid course behind them then the very basics are going to take a day without touching those scenarios mentioned previously.

If the course was aimed at those having the above behind them already then i think everyone would get much more out of it..

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Tell you what , how about you put a note in your pocket bogtrotter so I know not to give you first aid in the horrible event of you getting injured ? Particularly a chest wound ?

Fair enough?

Pulse,Palour,Pupils, Pockets