Forged Certificates
- Thread starter Jamouk
- Start date
63
Well-Known Member
I was talking to Mrs 63 the other day about this - she had a relatively illustrious career as a senior civilian in the Met and Home Office before moving to pastures new.
What I hadn’t appreciated was how little leverage over individual police forces the Home Office actually have - unless they all agree they can’t centrally mandate a new design for licences, a national database or very much else without new primary legislation, and the situation is even worse with respect to things like data sharing between forces. Things you’d think would be fundamental to modern law enforcement…
In her estimation at least, a large part of the the reason that issues get thrown onto the shooters is that it is more realistic, from the HO perspective, than trying to get all the constabularies to get their ducks in a row.
What I hadn’t appreciated was how little leverage over individual police forces the Home Office actually have - unless they all agree they can’t centrally mandate a new design for licences, a national database or very much else without new primary legislation, and the situation is even worse with respect to things like data sharing between forces. Things you’d think would be fundamental to modern law enforcement…
In her estimation at least, a large part of the the reason that issues get thrown onto the shooters is that it is more realistic, from the HO perspective, than trying to get all the constabularies to get their ducks in a row.
What ever happens its are fault, Police cock up Plymouth, are fault, nutter makes a fake SGC are fault.
Rather than what’s wrong with society today, or knife used 100 times but no mention of significant changes to knife law.
Career politicians wanting to make a name for themselves, we are just easy prey.
long_range_rob
Well-Known Member
So we as certificate holders can’t even rely on certificates being a standard size.I feel for the seller.
I have sold and purchased via SD. It might be useful to post the NCA advice as a sticky on the classified.
Know your UK firearms documents
Project RUTIC is the NCA response to the rising threat of fraudulent copies of firearms documents being used in an atte...www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk
My recent purchase we exchanged copies of certificates in advance of the meeting, on the day mine was checked as its A5, a lot are still A4.
Passports are all standard, driving licences are standard but a Chief Constable from one area takes it upon themselves to go A5 rather than A4. Makes it almost impossible to verify without specialist knowledgeYou can now generate a "check code" for your driving license, you can give the code to someone and its good for 3 weeks, they can just go online, type the code in and check your license is valid, see what types of vehicles you can drive (HGVs, motorbikes, etc) and if you have any endorsements. My employer requires it once a year and my car insurance wanted it too this year.
View or share your driving licence information
Find out what information DVLA holds about your driving licence or create a check code to share your driving record, for example to hire a car
it's a pretty simple system, something like that would work well for firearms transactions. If you could generate a one use code, give that to the seller and they can type that code in on the gov website which checked it against the NFLMS to verify that you had a valid certificate with the appropriate open slot
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
I guess the biggest issue will be the underlying tech that the police can make available to rfd’s to validate the license, etc.You can now generate a "check code" for your driving license, you can give the code to someone and its good for 3 weeks, they can just go online, type the code in and check your license is valid, see what types of vehicles you can drive (HGVs, motorbikes, etc)and if you have any endorsements. My employer requires it once a year and my car insurance wanted it too this year.
View or share your driving licence information
Find out what information DVLA holds about your driving licence or create a check code to share your driving record, for example to hire a carwww.gov.uk
it's a pretty simple system, something like that would work well for firearms transactions. If you could generate a one use code, give that to the seller and they can type that code in on the home office website which checked it against the NFLMS to verify that you had a valid certificate with the appropriate open slot
Unfortunately the whole system seems to be a mess. I notified purchase of a S2 shotgun on line, presumably the RFD will have done the same so In a way two step verification?, however there was no record of me owning it (apart from my cert and copy of transfer from myself and RFD)
More recently, I found that when notifying purchase of a S1 rifle I had reversed 2 digits (slight dyslexia) again, this wad not queried as a discrepancy against what I assume the RFD would have sent??
More recently, I found that when notifying purchase of a S1 rifle I had reversed 2 digits (slight dyslexia) again, this wad not queried as a discrepancy against what I assume the RFD would have sent??
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
I know a surprising number of shooters who do not use the internet.You can now generate a "check code" for your driving license, you can give the code to someone and its good for 3 weeks, they can just go online, type the code in and check your license is valid, see what types of vehicles you can drive (HGVs, motorbikes, etc) and if you have any endorsements. My employer requires it once a year and my car insurance wanted it too this year.
View or share your driving licence information
Find out what information DVLA holds about your driving licence or create a check code to share your driving record, for example to hire a car
it's a pretty simple system, something like that would work well for firearms transactions. If you could generate a one use code, give that to the seller and they can type that code in on the gov website which checked it against the NFLMS to verify that you had a valid certificate with the appropriate open slot
Seller of shotgun had no case to answer. Pretty sure it’s in the same article you posted your screenshot from:
“He researched the logos, signatures and even the type of paper licences were printed on to fool the seller, who police found had committed no offence.
"It is a fake, but possibly only an expert would know that," said Det Ch Insp Khanna.”
63
Well-Known Member
As witness the numerous threads complaining about online applications/renewals for certificates.
Online threads posted by people who do not use the Internet
That's almost as comical as the folk who post on here saying that they don't use social media
BBC this morning, all should use the contact BBC link at the bottom of the article and push back on lack of control due to lack of investment by the Police keeping a paper system.
Nicholas Prosper triple murder exposes law weaknesses, says PCC
Nicholas Prosper bought a gun with a fake licence less than 24 hours before killing three relatives.
www.bbc.co.uk
My thoughts on what to expect:
¤ No private (Public face-to-face) sale of shotguns/firearms.
¤ All private sales of shotguns/firearms to take place c/o an RFD and in the presence of same.
¤ Elected and registered RFD employees to have access to Home Office data base with limited user rights that permits running a check on license/certificate numbers. (Info displayed to be that of name and passport-like photograph only.)
¤ Increased cost of Licence/Certificate issue.
K
¤ No private (Public face-to-face) sale of shotguns/firearms.
¤ All private sales of shotguns/firearms to take place c/o an RFD and in the presence of same.
¤ Elected and registered RFD employees to have access to Home Office data base with limited user rights that permits running a check on license/certificate numbers. (Info displayed to be that of name and passport-like photograph only.)
¤ Increased cost of Licence/Certificate issue.
K
TringSaint
Well-Known Member
I can see all of this happening, but will they have the underlying systems in place to support it?
The first three are mostly sensible
Had exactly this about 10 or so years back, had purchased a shotgun from a dealer who used the guntrader system which generated a letter for him to send to police & another letter for me to send to police. Both sent immediately after purchase.
Roll on to a request from me for the shotgun to be added to my EFP & I get an email asking me to call them, which I do. Apparently they had no record of my acquisition of the shotgun & could I please confirm when & where I got it, they admitted it wasn’t something I’d done but was their mistake… so I gave them the details & that was that!
63
Well-Known Member
Based on existing public sector IT infrastructure, not a snowballs chance in hell before 2035.
As per my earlier comment, Mrs63 gives me to understand that far more important things like sharing criminal intelligence are not done in a joined up way between police forces nationally, and they’ve been plugging away at that for decades.
The police say the details weren't checked immediately because the seller notified them out of working hours. I wonder when the police did check, before or after the crime? I think there may be some deflecting from the chief constable. Although in fairness the system as it is deffo has holes.
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