FOX Bullets expansion.

[ashray]

good afternoon hammo,how badly fouled was your rifle after using these bullets and do you think they will increase bore wear?

 

[Namman]

We do. It's how we judge their performance (in addition to stuff being dead).

As someone who, on the lead issue, remains to be convinced, those images worry me a good deal. I certainly wouldn't use them.

My impression is that if you recovered the bullet it must have worked!!! ( assuming a one shot Kill).

 

[Namman]

[ Non of my quarry is QUOTE="hammo, post: 1725147, member: 16867"]
Fired a few test rounds of Fox 160gr bullets, at 100m expansion was impressive. I know that's not far out, but feel confident they will expand to 300m.
Just wanted to see a first hand result. Fired into a sack of loose course sand.
Accuracy looked good, but will need to get on the Bipod and fire again under more stable conditions.
Encouraging results for those like me who worried about poor expansion

[/QUOTE]

Fired a few test rounds of Fox 160gr bullets, at 100m expansion was impressive. I know that's not far out, but feel confident they will expand to 300m.
Just wanted to see a first hand result. Fired into a sack of loose course sand.
Accuracy looked good, but will need to get on the Bipod and fire again under more stable conditions.
Encouraging results for those like me who worried about poor expansion

Now all we need are some game animals made of sand!

 

[hammo]

good afternoon hammo,how badly fouled was your rifle after using these bullets and do you think they will increase bore wear?

No difference in fouling, barrel always easy to clean as S+L lap every barrel.
Brass is harder than copper, so this is a possible issue. I would hope that the makers of these would have taken this into consideration, then again would probably be a few thousand rounds before you could try and measure and compare barrel wear. There are some other brass bullets from at least one other supplier I believe.

 

[ashray]

good evening,my main concern is the ricochet problems,fine on scottish open hill but down in southern England with house/buildings within 500 yards very very dangerous.i also read they can not be used on mod ranges,thank you for your reply.

 

[hammo]

If you don't have a decent backstop.....

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Ricochet risk is present with any bullet
These bullets have been proven to not present any significant increase in ricochet risk when fired into the same substrate as a jacketed cup and core bullet.

The NRA did an extensive test at Bisley

ANY bullet will ricochet if fires into a solid backstop

 

[ashray]

the BIG difference is that 243/264 soft point bullets have a lot less mass left to bounce off into the distance! always a safe back stop but that is not guaranteed to stop the bullet. the nra tests where not conclusive I have read the reports and also reports/findings from Norway and germany. the lead free bullets do come with their own issues. E R I know you have an interest in selling non lead bullets and good luck to you but to me there may be other problem which may come to light from other countries findings. time will tell.

 

[User00033]

The pictures that Odders posted are very interesting. I believe that the straight through / narrow wound channel experience of monolithics that I’ve had on fallow deer, shot behind the shoulder, can be explained by the characteristics of the 100m and 200m bullets in the photos. But they weren’t Fox, so not really relevant. Regardless, there’s a lot more of this kind of test work out there on these types of bullets that sometimes show very similar outcomes, irrespective of brand. But also quite a lot of test work that show very pretty, and very lethal mushrooms.

My point about the monolithic choice is more to do with the result of a bullet not expanding like the soft cup & core bullets that I prefer. Specifically the fact that the monolithics do not pull up as quickly inside the animal, and frequently over-penetrate. There are three things I want my bullet to do... (1) hit where I aim it, (2) slow down very quickly in the important bits, dumping all it’s energy where it counts, and (3) if it exits then a shape roughly 2½ - 3x calibre and ~50-70% of its original weight.

I don’t want the bullet to exit the animal with significant amounts of downrange energy, in the manner that a lot of monolithics appear to do.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

the BIG difference is that 243/264 soft point bullets have a lot less mass left to bounce off into the distance!

the fact that the monolithics do not pull up as quickly inside the animal, and frequently over-penetrate.

I don’t want the bullet to exit the animal with significant amounts of downrange energy, in the manner that a lot of monolithics appear to do.

Agreed
when something does not shed weight and is often travelling faster as it hits the animal simple physics tells you it will exit with more velocity
Its the maintenance of its original mass that is of interest to to meat industry
we are not going to get away from that.

as to vested interest. Yes I do. We all do.
but I probably sell 10:1 Lead to Non Lead
Be a lot easier if it stayed the same but thats not going to happen

 

[Selous]

Some monolithics (eg GS Custom) are designed to shed the petals in the same way that the photos have shown with the rest of the shank continuing. The Barnes tends to retain the petals and exit with the more classic mushroom. There are potential advantages and disadvantages of both however what does not seem to change is the ability of partially fragmenting and non fragmenting monometal bullets to cause rapid death of the animal within certain criteria. I know of very experienced stalkers who shoot hundreds of deer per year whose ideal go to bullet is the GS Custom. What I am saying I guess is that losing the petals is not necessarily a problem with regards to the bullet killing a deer sized animal.

 

[hammo]

The pictures that Odders posted are very interesting. I believe that the straight through / narrow wound channel experience of monolithics that I’ve had on fallow deer, shot behind the shoulder, can be explained by the characteristics of the 100m and 200m bullets in the photos. But they weren’t Fox, so not really relevant. Regardless, there’s a lot more of this kind of test work out there on these types of bullets that sometimes show very similar outcomes, irrespective of brand. But also quite a lot of test work that show very pretty, and very lethal mushrooms.

My point about the monolithic choice is more to do with the result of a bullet not expanding like the soft cup & core bullets that I prefer. Specifically the fact that the monolithics do not pull up as quickly inside the animal, and frequently over-penetrate. There are three things I want my bullet to do... (1) hit where I aim it, (2) slow down very quickly in the important bits, dumping all it’s energy where it counts, and (3) if it exits then a shape roughly 2½ - 3x calibre and ~50-70% of its original weight.

I don’t want the bullet to exit the animal with significant amounts of downrange energy, in the manner that a lot of monolithics appear to do.

That is what we all want, of course. But it must be understood that this point of expansion, violent enough to shed all the front of the bullet petals; will be creating a much wider wound cavity. This can only be appreciated using ballistic wax or clay as the test medium. Ballistic gel expands and contracts too much to give true wound channel dimensions.
My pics at the start of my post show a very well formed mushroom. At short range I may well shed some petals off. The 100m result shown is everything I hoped for, but I need to see 200m to reassure me I still have expansion enough there.

I suggest the extra width of my .323 bullet offers stronger petals less likely to shed off, and that narrower bullets - .243, .277 are going to have a thinner therefore more easily shed petal thickness.
Odders pic at 200m does not tally with my results at all. I have not cronographed yet, but estimate @ 2500fps at 100m for my bullet. Yet I have 100% weight retention and near perfect expansion. His is a smaller caliber though, which must be the difference.

I am off work all this week, and in the unlikely event that someone has the time, a suitable bit of ground and some ballistic medium - preferably wax or clay that shows the true wound channel; I will drive anywhere in the UK to test this out (.323/8mm) against whatever other calibers we can muster.
By the way, Im enjoying peoples input on this, always had an interest in the physics and mechanics of how bullets perform.

 

[Heym SR20]

Just to chime into the Ricochet argument.

1) Any bullet will ricochet and indeed bullets Ricochet within animals. You need to search far on SD for members very odd exits.

2) Unless you have a good safe backdrop that can take account even of an odd ricocheting bullet you should n't be shooting a rifle in that direction. If your ground is not safe for a shot from the ground then use elevation and build some highseats. If still not safe to shoot, then don't shoot.

3) I have always preferred a bullet that will punch a good sized hole right through the animal but continue on in a straight line and burying itself deep into the ground. Such a bullet reduces the risk of being deflected whilst passing through the animal, or for that matter being deflected by a twig or similar.

4) as for the lead argument - most game and venison goes into the human food chain. The food chain does not allow contaminates into the system and lead is seen as a contaminant in just the same way as bacteria or other materials. The monolithic bullets do not fragment, or vaporise / melt when then hit the target, they deform and keep together so much much lower levels of contamination, and with a much less toxic substance.

 

[Heym SR20]

And for transparancy I did help Edinburgh rifles with some of the early testing of Non Toxic bullets. What was quickly clear to me is that the Fox Bullet does expand a lot more than other brands such as the Barnes or the Hornady GMX, but equally did n't have quite the same penetration - in water jugs, ballsitic gell or clay. I like the Fox bullet and use it out of choice in my 7x57. Its accurate, kills Roe Deer on the spot and leaves a nice clean carcass. The Fox Bullet is of European origin and thus designed to work with Roe, Fallow, Red and Wild boar.

I would suggest that the Barnes and Hornady GMX are designed for the American Market with often much bigger game such as bears and Elk and plains game in mind, hence a slightly tougher design that doesn't expand quite as much but penetrates very well. And American hunters tend to shoot fewer animals than we do, and are quite happy taking and anchoring shot through the shoulder. I believe in most states Venison is not sold - it is just for own consumption.

 

[reloader54]

And for transparancy I did help Edinburgh rifles with some of the early testing of Non Toxic bullets. What was quickly clear to me is that the Fox Bullet does expand a lot more than other brands such as the Barnes or the Hornady GMX, but equally did n't have quite the same penetration - in water jugs, ballsitic gell or clay. I like the Fox bullet and use it out of choice in my 7x57. Its accurate, kills Roe Deer on the spot and leaves a nice clean carcass. The Fox Bullet is of European origin and thus designed to work with Roe, Fallow, Red and Wild boar.

I would suggest that the Barnes and Hornady GMX are designed for the American Market with often much bigger game such as bears and Elk and plains game in mind, hence a slightly tougher design that doesn't expand quite as much but penetrates very well. And American hunters tend to shoot fewer animals than we do, and are quite happy taking and anchoring shot through the shoulder. I believe in most states Venison is not sold - it is just for own consumption.

I have a 7x57 so I'm interested in your roe comments above, what sort of approximate ranges are you getting these results at.

 

[User00014]

I have shot 4 of the U.K. 6 with the fox factory offering in my 270 and love them, accurate, kind to the carcass and you can eat right up to the hole!
Cost to me is irrelevant, as long as the bullet does the job I’m happy.

I’ve shot from ranges of 40m - 300m with the same results.

 

[243varmint]

Reading this thread with interest.
I use a 30-06 with 165gr intelocs doing around 2700fps.
So if I were to go over to Fox bullets what weight would you guys surgest? I know a lot of people say to go with a lighter bullet.
Looking for advice on these bullets for home loading.
Thanks in advance.

 

[hammo]

Good results at the range today, 51gr of N140 grouping OK.

 

[Heym SR20]

I have a 7x57 so I'm interested in your roe comments above, what sort of approximate ranges are you getting these results at.

Mostly 50 to 120 metres, but have shot a couple out to probably 180, and also one at about 30.

 

[Heym SR20]

Good results at the range today, 51gr of N140 grouping OK.

By the looks of it you have hit a nice node at around 51g, and given that its a nice round number that's what I would go with. But assuming that is a 30mm diameter black dot all of those bullets are all pretty much within a 1" group and any variation is probably more down to statistics, and environmental conditions such as wind, barrel getting a little warmer and variations in how you hold the rifle between shots. Move your zero a couple of clicks to the right, load up a batch and go hunting.