Future testing of tracking dogs

[manc-munsters]

As an owner of two "German" dogs, I would be very interested in learning more about what would be required of a dog entered into a "tracking test" here in the UK

Differences between dogs trained to track in Germany, and those trained to track in the UK are immense. Just one of these differences is "giving tongue". A strict requirement in Germany and officially "frowned on" in the UK.

While I personally think the German standards are far superior to current UK standards, some of the breed requirements leave a little to be desired.

Is there a real need for a separate, or additional, qualification for a tracking dog in the UK?

A quick look on the HPR forum at the proposals for VGWATSUK will prove what a nightmare setting up a new test can be!

 

[doghound]

Sikmalc I think you are right I have been involved in training Gundogs for 25+ years and no register is going to change who has good dogs and who doesn't . Trouble is a register is not about helping each other out with your dogs. It's about exclusivity and power, look at the bickering of the two protagonists on this thread it already starting to show the signs of who's camp are you in.

My concern is that this register might seem
a good idea now but some will
want some part of it compulsory, you may HAVE to be registered with someone on the register to get stalking for instance . Don't laugh DSC was only a bit of fun when
it started and that's damn near compulsory.

So I ask you what is all the competetive Jostling all about, fess up
now boys.

 

[Stand Buck]

Ever gone stalking without your dog? for what ever reason the dog is sick or lame you can nearly bet that will be the time you need it.

If your ground is good deal away from where you live and you dont know any locals then you could use the register to make contact with someone who has a dog local to where you are stalking.

If we were all members of DMG's then we could organise it at a local level the the DMG. Although that would allow the DI or DCS to get their foot in the door.

What we dont want is BASC BDS NGO DI DSC mandating it because there will then be testing certificates and all the assosiated cost already encountered with the DSC1 & 2.

This site found a way forward on the DSC2 by creating for want of a better word a register of CW & AW's how sinister was that?

 

[stone]

Jon
to be honest
when i was 16 i got into gundogs
worked for a proffessional gundog trainer till his untimely passing from this world
trained quite a few dogs for the field , looked at becoming a judge, as i hated the way trialing was going
from there i then distanced my way from that sector, as i knew i would never make a difference, i was right
i am now 38

now i see a way of making a difference that could work and is not about making money or cumpulsion or being the big i am
i hate compulsion but do see there is a limited need for it
but not at the level we are now jumping through hoops for thou
if i can prevent this i will, but not on my own as i am not big enough
so no hidden agenda only trying to help
if that is wrong then fair enough
i hav never pushed for more than that
but lets remember something here
malcolm has a trained dog , pillar of the community but is not prepared to use his dog to help
how many more are there out there like that~(only using Malc as an example but not in an offensive way)

if all the rest of you are on this wavelength , then we hav no hope
as for competitive jousting i for one am only participating to get more veiws on wether i am wasting my time or not
seems like i am not getting anywhere
more the pity, as i feel i can make this work with out all the compulsion that will be put forward, that will be forced upon us
my mistake for trying to prevent this
my laurels rest with helping others if i can, which i already hav implemented in the dog days, shan't comment on what other help i hav tried to give as it does not concern this particular issuse , but for character reference ask about those that hav met or spoken to me and get their views (horses mouths and all that, good or bad i expect you to hear the truth, then make your own mind up about me)
as i said the dog days i hav hosted might not be the best days out there but a starting point to help try and put others on the right track, i for one enjoyed them as did most that attended, we can only go forward from this
i see you are a educated fellow in the dog world but still not prepared to commit, thou you like the idea
those that are against me and my ideas only hav to ring me for a chat
i hav no probs and willing to take into account any possitive or constructive critisim that could help as iu hav done already
as i said can't do it alone and this needs to be a joint venture to make it work
how else would this be possible if i did not hav support and backing from those that count

 

[doghound]

Rich

the ring for a chat thing is not the way to go as this debate needs airing in public as ultimately it may affect many of us.

I don't think you are on the wrong track per see but what you and stand buck are proposing is a comodity,you will own it, how do the subscribers have thier say? Who governs direction, moderates opinion ensures all decisions are for the greater good of the membership?

Lets not be nieve I, as have you, seen many of these things fall off the tracks for the want of some governance.

Why do you think I have suggested creating this in the form of a KC registered club, not because I like the KC particularly but becausethirdr rules on governance are strong and each member would get a vote on how things progress.

It has other benifits more members means more clout with defra bds etc a membership that can be working towards registration on the trackers list. And probably more important at this stage a clear, public, transparent set of objectives and a mission statement so all can judge for themselves what people are up to!

 

[sikamalc]

Rich,
I will use my dog on my ground with my clients. I would use my dog and have used my dog to help friends as well on their ground. I will have my dog with me in Scotland for the month and will use it when SD members are up for the week on my lease taking Sika and Reds.

I am 53 by the way ( what has the age 38 got to do with anything Rich ?)

What I would be reluctant to use my dog for is being called out to an area that I am not familier with and with stalkers I am unfamilier with. The insurance issue is my main concern for the dog. You are now providing a service and not many companies will insure, and those that do want an adsolute fortune

Whilst I have no issue with what is trying to be achieved for site members that live near each other having the knowledge of an available dog owner nearby should they need to call on one. I have an issue with trying to make this a UK wide organisation, which this site does NOT support.

At the moment you are not required in the UK to have a trained dog available or nearby if and when you go stalking.

But in some European countries it is compulsary !!!! just be careful you do not stir up another hornets nest here where we find ourselves lumped with more rules that state we must have a dog or one nearby available.

I know it might seem far fetched, but so was Level 1 and 2 some years back, and look what happened to that!!

 

[doghound]

Malc

Christ mate you don't look over 50, I think you have summed up what I am trying to say spot on. Trouble is those of us in our fifties remember what it was like when there were no restrictions/rules/qualifications and we did as good a job then of shooting them and finding them as we do now.

I see the tracking dog thing getting out of hand as well which is why I say make it a club.

I don't think I could stick many more must haves/do's as I go into my second quarter century as a deer stalker.

 

[camathias]

well i have been reading this with interest, and i can not get over how people think that this will not become a back door compulsory.

DSC1 and 2 are now compulsory You can not go on FC land with out them both. so unless you can get private land you are stuffed and forced in to doing the coursers. and all the main players are responsible for this. and they all said it would not become compulsory. god even the police are now asking / sorry telling people that they can not have this and that with out DSC1 and DSC2.
now i know this is not law but you try and stop them saying this.

This is how the deer dog job is heading. and I'm afraid the FC are all ready asking for trained dogs. and i have been checked to see if i have had them with me wile out stalking.

do you think BASC will miss out on another money making opportunity
don't make me **** myself. they are all ready on with this. and it will be expensive. and for the good of basc not you or the dogs or the deer. FOR THE GOOD OF BASC BANK.

ATB
Cam

PS i did my DSC1 and 2 because i could see this coming years ago, well it is not hard to see if you don't wear blinkers

 

[L.D.G]

I hate the thought of more testing and while i have done my DSC, i done them because i wanted to i have a dog and have always had dogs that work the way i want and that is important to me . God forbid some fool with a tracking dog following cold blood trails leads and harnesses weeks after the animal has been shot should have any say in how a deerstalking dog should work.
We have many a lad who will go stalking 50 -100 times a year dose he need!! a dog yes or he should be able to get the use of one. What about the chap who only goes stalking once twice a year dose he need one. We need to think be fore we try and force our beliefs on others who for one reason or another don't like dogs don't need a dog or don't have the opportunity to house one.
PLEASE TRAIN YOUR DOGS TO BE THE BEST THEY CAN FOR YOU BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU LIKE THEM DONT RAM THEM DOWN OTHER PEOPLES THROATS.

PS IF CALSBURGH MADE DEERSTALKING DOGS THEY WOULD HAVE MADE ONE LIKE THIS,

 

[camathias]

L D G
even i could have followed that trail. it stands out like a sore thumb
Only kidding chap

ATB
Cam

 

[L.D.G]

Your right mate but i can tell thee there was no blood to follow except the mass of sent that would have exited the fox when the bullet went in and caused an internal explosion.ps no exit hole.but my dog has always been partial to lamb
The point i am trying to make people expect different things of there dogs and just because they don't work to a preset standard dose that mean they should not be on the said list.
For me if you have a dog and need to use it only for finding then you have a dog that ain't worth the dog food.

 

[Stand Buck]

The point i am trying to make people expect different things of there dogs and just because they don't work to a preset standard dose that mean they should not be on the said list.

Well said Davie, I think that the fact a stalker is willing to go out and help look for a deer with hs dogs, is all the qualification that is required to go on any list.

All the talk of tests, courses and qualifications will only end in tears.

The best dog I have came from rescue I have never laid a trail for her, just took her to every deer I have shot. She will and has tracked successfully 48hr old trails, will work for anyone and is strong enough to bring down and kill a sika stag.

What have I taught her? to sit on the back of a quad and not Jump jump off and not to jump out of the landy untill told to do so. Get a good dog and tracking is in thier blood.

 

[Jagare]

The thing that makes me think about the way this is going in the Uk is that it will end up like the DSC 1-2 . It will have no standing in law but will be required by all and sundry before you can go stalking.
Now i'm not against training days for dogs for deer. I think all stalkers should have access to a dog before they go stalking.
But once it gets into the hands of the shooting organisations where will it end. Will you pass the test only to find that they have shifted the goal posts and you have to do another test or it requires an upgrade that cost 15-20 pounds for the bit of paper.

As Iv'e said before our law requires us to have or have access to a dog that is trained to track the type of animal that you are hunting. The law do's not say that the dog has to pass a test, go on a course or such like. Its down to the hunter to prove that his dog is up to the task if the police should ask for it. Its not likley to happen but there was a court case in southern Sweden where some hunters were hunting boar and they only had there deer tracking dog .

I like training the dogs to track and do the tests but doing the test do's not make a tracking dog. Many people here do tracking tests as a sport in its own right. They may have Champion trackers but they will never see a deer in there life.

As Doghound said with the Teckle i sent him from Sweden. When he got her she was up to 24hr tracks over 600 mtrs but it took his further training on deer to make her the great tracking dog she is. He is lucky to have access to plenty of stalking and ideal ground for training

Stones Dog days are agreat way for the novice to get an idea what tracking is about. Not every one is out on the quad shooting a 100+ deer a year and able to give there dog so much work on so many wounded deer That the dog train them selves . so at least the training days are a step in the right direction.
As said i'm all for training dogs for deer but beware your not opening Pandora's box by getting into tests.

PS: Kopovs will not pull down a deer. They are hounds used for driving boar or large hoofed game. They are not attack dogs

 

[Paul 600]

PS: Kopovs will not pull down a deer. They are hounds used for driving boar or large hoofed game. They are not attack dogs

They do hold boar at bay very well though so I am told!

 

[stone]

Rich

the ring for a chat thing is not the way to go as this debate needs airing in public as ultimately it may affect many of us.

I don't think you are on the wrong track per see but what you and stand buck are proposing is a comodity,you will own it,

Jon
the ring for the chat is just another way to find out what my views and intentions are
aswell as make aquaitance the keyboard is not really my idea of getting to know anyone
plus , if i had to write down all i am trying to say in a tone i am saying it in, it might take months to do
i am not wot you call quick at clerical work but i am able to talk a little
that way in half hour or less you will hav a better understanding of myself and see where i am coming from
as for a commodity
i will of funded it myself as i am doing so far but tyring to set it up with help from others around the country
from there there will be a nationwide say as there is a nationwide support
if along the lines i can cover some costs through merchandise and donations possibly a signing up fee of pittance for those that want to use the register but not those that are on it , then so be it but all is done at cost
as you can imagine it is not cheap to take on such a task
i don't see it as a money making scheme and i can't see it being a profit to any one money wise in the near future but hey ho some one will think different
the only ones that can benefit is those that are on it and using it , time will tell for the rest
ATB

 

[stone]

Malc
in reply to your good self
as i said you hav the ways and means to help
but you hav took it the wrong way
you joined the debate with such comments which are thought by many more in yours and others situations
these are some of the people that can actually help if they realised it a bit more
the age thing
well every one else has commented on how long they hav been in the business so why can't i
but you not really 53 are you, you ole begger you
also there is other issuse arising from this which is being overlooked once more
we don't hav a legal neccessity to hav a trained deer dog at hand
like we don't need a trained shooting dog at hand for other shooting related sports
but with deer stalking being so heavy regulated in time it may become a law
but by having something else up and running which works then you might find the issuse is not as great a concern as they will see there is no money to be made from it as it will cost them shed loads to change the law in this country to help benefit such a scheme that they would need to implement
unless our laws and regulations are equal to other countries that it is compulsory in then they don't stand much of a chance, why do you think we don't hav a goverment register in place already
but by not doing something nationwide now , then we could fnd ourselves in a whole deeper pile of crap than we are experencing at the mo if they ever did get a foot in the door
this is not about minority thinking this is about minority joining in with trhe majority and creating a balance that could work
does the SD support that
regards

 

[stone]

The point i am trying to make people expect different things of there dogs and just because they don't work to a preset standard dose that mean they should not be on the said list.

LDG, Davie, 6.5x55
which ever name you are going by
what you expect from your dog makes little difference if you hav an air scenting dog that is expected to follow a 24-36 hour old trail
it won't happen but like Standbuck pointed out earlier, if a huge tropy with a price tag to go with it is at stake some one will be determined to find that beast no matter if it is 2 days later who would you call with a dog that is trained to that standard
that is why you need to asses which dogs and handlers are capable of doing which call outs and help all involved to get the right result who said about failure apart from those that are debating against such ideas
having the right dog at hand saves a lot of haas in the long run and those that are need of a dog can see which dogs and handlers they may need to call out for which occassion
surely you can work this methdology out
regards

 

[Stand Buck]

Just be aware the Deer act in an SI, therefore can be changed without act of parliament by the SoS.

 

[sikamalc]

Rich,

Just to make myself clear, although I do not speak for JAYB. I for one am not prepared to see the SD site support a nation wide deer dog register that could as you say become another onerus law that we can all do without.

What I do support is those on the site helping each other out, including those with working dogs helping fellow stalkers, if they want too. Many folk on here have given much time and their stalking for free or very cheaply to help others out, ( I know you are one of those which is very commendable of you ) and very good friendships have evolved from this. I personally have met some great guys who I now class as friends

LegalEagle, Steyr243, Tikka308, Robin, Smithy to name a few.

What I am not prepared to do is have the site stick its neck out and support a nationwide dog register. Thats not what this site is all about. Helping yes, advising yes, putting another possible piece of beaurocasy in place or laying the foundations for it NO!!

I personally wish you well with your endevours, but I fear you are barking up the wrong tree ( excuse the pun )

ATB

Sikamalc

 

[Paul 600]

I have no qualms in helping someone find a lost beast however I do have a concern with any deer register. If my contact details are on that register how does it stop Joe Public who may not have good intentions from giving me a call out in the middle of the night to a false alarm or worst still a kicking and robbed?

There are many out there that will do anything to stop all forms of field sports!