Handling an LBP without a slot

[Jagged77]

I have handled them, can’t see the point. I have shot plenty of revolvers and pistols over the years - 32 acp, semi auto, 38 special short barrel revolver, 44 Magnum Smith & Wesson, Broomhandled Mauser, 9mm Browning High power, Glocks, 357 Magnum and a duelling type pistol as well as air pistols . I can shoot them well enough, but don’t particularly like them or enjoy them. I can see their utility as a defensive tool. I can see how people enjoy target shooting and the challenge that entails.

As a hunting weapon I would much rather use a shotgun or rifle as appropriate.

Ah ok, I can see your point of view. When I lived in the US I shot practical pistol and pretty much everything else I could get my hands on. An LBR is no substitute for this, and neither should they be, however I would say they do have a place - target, competition and range use. I would go on to say that get behind one and start shooting, it’s not really all that much different than its shorter barrelled, non extended cousin. Sure, I think due to the longer barrel the muzzle flip is more prominent, but that’s about it. Even the stock extensions (if positioned properly) are unnoticeable when shooting. Given the ban on handguns, an LBR is a pretty good option for those wanting to enjoy some sport and compete where possible.

 

[8x57]

Jagged77 we are in agreement as regards a LBR or a LBP being no substitute for a proper pistol.
However, speaking as someone who shot pistols competitively for 20+ years until the government's great handgun theft, and someone who also owned and shot both LBR and LBP for a few years after the ban I can only say that both LBR and LBP are bloody dreadful to shoot. Both totally awkward and unbalanced and neither gave me any pleasure whatsoever to shoot.

 

[Jagged77]

Jagged77 we are in agreement as regards a LBR or a LBP being no substitute for a proper pistol.
However, speaking as someone who shot pistols competitively for 20+ years until the government's great handgun theft, and someone who also owned and shot both LBR and LBP for a few years after the ban I can only say that both LBR and LBP are bloody dreadful to shoot. Both totally awkward and unbalanced and neither gave me any pleasure whatsoever to shoot.

I think it’s quite understandable if you came straight from the disappointment of giving up your pistols to trying to fill the gap with an LBP, it’s going to have a sour taste. My point is there’s no point in dwelling on what once was - handguns in the UK have gone and they’re never coming back. Enjoyment, sport and competition can still be had from LBR’s for those that are so inclined, and long may they have the opportunity to do so.

 

[Elshad]

I think it’s quite understandable if you came straight from the disappointment of giving up your pistols to trying to fill the gap with an LBP, it’s going to have a sour taste. My point is there’s no point in dwelling on what once was - handguns in the UK have gone and they’re never coming back. Enjoyment, sport and competition can still be had from LBR’s for those that are so inclined, and long may they have the opportunity to do so.

With the right government, anything is possible.

Certainly I doubt there would be anything like the mass hysteria of 1996 if a future government were to loosen restrictions somewhat e.g. perhaps allow .22 handguns under section 1.

 

[Bill.Stickers]

You can’t be in possession of a section 1 firearm that you do not have authority to possess. There is exception in the act to allow people to be in possession of a club section 1 firearm that the club is approved for. No clubs are approved for section 1 shotguns or LBRs/LBPs so the exemption does not apply. They therefore can’t be held on club certificates or shot by other members of the club.

That's a very succinct statement. As a club secretary I hold the HO Approval and it lists the types of approved firearms, for us that's rifles and muzzle loading pistols. We have members that own the abominations that are LBP/LBR and they know full well the dire consequences of "giving a club-mate a go" on our ranges. As far as I know there's no possibility in getting HO Approval for S1 shotguns or LBP/LBR so we are prevented from owning them as a club for member's training. However our ranges may be used by a member only who has one of these on their ticket.

 

[M@tt]

Where exactly is the legislation on long barreled pistols. I thought the whole was that the long barrel and stock / coat hanger made them effectively a short rifle thus a section 1, as opposed to section 5.

There's no definition of 'rifle' in the Act. There are firearms that are longer than the 300/600mm and those that are shorter.

The Act does mention 'Rifle Clubs' however, and then you get into the whole confusion of when is a s1 firearm a rifle, if it is of legal length.

The law makes it illegal to possess any firearm without a certificate unless you have lawful reason to be allowed without an FAC/SGC, including airguns over 1J. Clubs can only be approved for RIFLES or ML PISTOLS so the exemption on club members not needing a certificate only extends to rifles and/or ml pistols.
There are other exemptions to the requirement of a certificate, allowing the possession of LBP/LBRs for certain reasons.

 

[sy247]

I recently wanted to buy a .22 semi auto LBP from Fultons. He wouldn't let me handle it without checking whether there was a slot of my FAC. When I decided I wanted to buy it, it turned out the slot that I had didn't allow me to. It was for a .22 semi auto rifle, not a pistol. I can't understand the difference although I understand the basis in law. They are both firing the same cartridge, using the same action, with the same overall length. What a muddle we have got ourselves into. Of course the stupid things is, it does nothing to prevent the availability of illegal firearms getting into the hand of criminals.

 

[castbullets.co.uk]

There's no definition of 'rifle' in the Act. There are firearms that are longer than the 300/600mm and those that are shorter.

The Act does mention 'Rifle Clubs' however, and then you get into the whole confusion of when is a s1 firearm a rifle, if it is of legal length.

The law makes it illegal to possess any firearm without a certificate unless you have lawful reason to be allowed without an FAC/SGC, including airguns over 1J. Clubs can only be approved for RIFLES or ML PISTOLS so the exemption on club members not needing a certificate only extends to rifles and/or ml pistols.
There are other exemptions to the requirement of a certificate, allowing the possession of LBP/LBRs for certain reasons.

There isn't a definition of the word 'rifle' which means the law resorts to the ordinary definition of the word - this is standard legal practice. The ordinary definition of the word rifle includes 'fired from the shoulder' which automatically excludes LBP/LBRs from being rifles.

Section 11 and Section 11A are both poorly worded in my view and that is where the issues stem from...

 

[12gsnapcaps]

I remember being told by my FEO, maybe 5 years ago, in regards to allowing other people to shoot an LBP or Section 1 shotgun - in as many words;

1. Yes, it's technically illegal
2. If they found out about it happening and it was a one off at a club/range, clearly wasnt done out of malice and there were no other aggravating factors, they turn a blind eye.

This was ofcourse just what I was told by one FEO of one force, 5 years ago.

 

[Bill.Stickers]

I remember being told by my FEO, maybe 5 years ago, in regards to allowing other people to shoot an LBP or Section 1 shotgun - in as many words;

1. Yes, it's technically illegal
2. If they found out about it happening and it was a one off at a club/range, clearly wasnt done out of malice and there were no other aggravating factors, they turn a blind eye.

This was ofcourse just what I was told by one FEO of one force, 5 years ago.

Technically illegal ? It is or it ain't. My advice to our club members is to comply with the letter of the law at all times because the consequences could outweigh any momentary 'fun' you may enjoy or give to a mate.

 

[12gsnapcaps]

Technically illegal ? It is or it ain't. My advice to our club members is to comply with the letter of the law at all times because the consequences could outweigh any momentary 'fun' you may enjoy or give to a mate.

Yes, Technically Illegal.

Apologies, perhaps my phrasing was confusing!

In my mind 'technically illegal' means it is officially illegal under law BUT - true! - I could have just said 'Illegal'

I was trying to differentiate between this and things that aren't in the HO guidelines or law but which FLO's and FEO's push AS IF they are guidelines or law.

Also to add, I agree with you. As responsible shooters we must obey and follow the law to the letter, regardless with how we feel about it.

I just wanted to add to the conversation with the experience I had, making sure to stress how it was an unofficial chat with one FEO from one force, 5 years ago.

 

[M@tt]

Depends upon the excuse or exemption you are using for handling the firearms without an FAC.

Same as any firearm handling without an FAC; if you have the legal excuse, you can do it.

 

[cjm1066]

M@tt is correct, as a member of a Home Office approved club it's simple to handle other firearms.

At a RFD if I have a SGC the 72 hour rule applies for handling a gun not on my certificate.

I suppose I use the Estate rifle clause to handle a rifle not on my FAC?

 

[Bill.Stickers]

M@tt is correct, as a member of a Home Office approved club it's simple to handle other firearms.

.....

Not correct. A Home Office approved club has specific kinds of firearms identified and that cannot include LBR/LBP which are excluded by dint of not being rifles or muzzle loaders. I'm a club secretary and have had detailed conversations with our Firearms office on this matter. While it may be acceptable in an emergency for example to make safe, it is not acceptable to handle one in normal circumstances unless it's serial number is on your FAC. What an RFD may be allowed to do is outside of my knowledge.

 

[cjm1066]

It's simple, to handle other firearms that the Club is approved for, see no 16.

 

[Elshad]

What rule / clause does an individual FAC holder rely on when they allow another club member to use/try their rifle (listed on their FAC, NOT the club FAC) under direct supervision at the club? Is there any specific provision? And how would this be different for an LBP / S1 shotgun?

 

[Bill.Stickers]

Home office approval is the difference. Clubs are allowed to use their own and other club members' rifles (with their permission). From the HO "Guide on Firearms Licensing Nov. 2022"

"Members of a rifle club, miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club approved by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers may, without holding firearm certificates, have in their possession firearms and ammunition when engaged as members of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting (section 15(1) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended by section 45 of the 1997 Act). It should be noted that section 15(1) does not stipulate that the firearms must be club firearms. A member of an approved club may temporarily possess a firearm solely in connection with target shooting on the club’s range, or other ranges which it may use. However, a person cannot possess a firearm under this exemption if it is a class of firearm for which the club is not approved. It should also be noted that section 15(1) of the 1988 Act, as amended, does not apply to the use of long barrelled pistols or section 1 shot guns used for target shooting, as it only allows possession of rifles or muzzle-loading pistols by members of suitably approved clubs. Accordingly, club approval cannot be extended to cover the use of these firearms (see also paragraph 17.12)."

 

[M@tt]

What rule / clause does an individual FAC holder rely on when they allow another club member to use/try their rifle (listed on their FAC, NOT the club FAC) under direct supervision at the club? Is there any specific provision? And how would this be different for an LBP / S1 shotgun?

There's no mention of the firearm's FAC status, whose FAC is it listed on, or even if it is listed on an FAC or not.
If the club is approved for that type/class of firearm then a member can possess whilst a member of the club and acting as such.

 

[ContinShots]

I've never been convinced the law says you can't borrow/lend a pistol, but it's commonly accepted and not something I have the time/energy/money to challenge formally. LBPs were born to comply with the terms in the Firearms Act, they're small rifles with an unusual configuration.

Lending S1 shotguns is more clear cut due to the wording of the borrowing clause.

I'm convinced neither of these was intentional (because, why?) but results from sloppy wording.

Oh well.

I disagree. The law is quite clear. Different provisions allow you to share rifles and shotguns on land you control ('estate exemption') or at approved clubs, but they do not extend to long-barrelled handguns or S1 shotguns. Long-barrelled handguns aren't rifles, they're handguns with long barrels. There's an urban myth that "they're legally carbines" but that's absolute nonsense: they're not, they're handguns. None of the 'sharing exemptions' apply to handguns. The wording in sharing provisions was explicitly changed from 'rifled' to 'rifle', for example, in 1997 because it was at that time envisaged that all handguns were banned and long-barrelled one's hadn't come into being at that stage. I agree that preventing haring wasn't intentional, because Parliament didn't know long-barrelled handguns would become a thing, but despite not being intentional, it's very much what the law states.

 

[ContinShots]

Have you a link to the actual case and the outcome? The buckmark is a bit different in that it starts out as a rifle in the first place so that’s likely why they decided it’s still a rifle, rather than and LBP or LBR.

Totally agree. It begins life as a rifle, it's barrel is shortened and a bar added, but in all other respects it's still the gun it was when it was manufactured. Io can see why a jury could reach that decision on that particularly gun, I can't see them reaching the same with any LBP or LBR that are factory made and look like a conventional handgun.