How safe is a "safety"

I've done all these things Tim and was specifically talking with reference to walking with a rifle. You are always very keen to frame things within your world view :tiphat:
I treat them both the same....however people's world view seems only confined to if they drop their rifle and it will go off..

Being safe is not confined to rifles or would you disagree.
 
I’m in the always loaded camp and 100% always loaded when stalking alone from when the car is locked.

If you start mixing things up, you’ll suddenly think you’re not loaded when you are, or, think you’re loaded and then you’re not

Consistency in approach is the safest and avoids confusion.
 
No, not talking about anyone in particular, but you emphasise my point in that there's an awful lot of loading and unloading involved in UK shooting, with everyone having their own individual routine and their own idea of what's right and what's wrong, to the point that you never know from what someone is doing (eg, whether they're stalking, standing about, negotiating obstacles, gun in slip / out of slip etc) whether their gun is likely to be loaded or not, and in moments of inattention it's pretty easy for the chap with the gun to forget too. And then accidents happen.

The routine has to be the same but with your saying...
I reckon most accidents are caused by a gun that was believed to be empty.
I think part of the problem, here in the UK,

If you check it is unloaded or don't point it at any one when it is that is just basic safe shooting.

I stalk with a friend the last couple of years, never shot with him apart from seeing him on clay shoots, yet both loading and unloading routines are the same. He has his rifle in a hard case and uses my tailgate to get sorted, I wait for him to finish he walks around the other side of the truck I take mine out the slip on the back seat face away load it lock the truck and off we go..we walk side by side down the rides muzzle down....
 
I treat them both the same....however people's world view seems only confined to if they drop their rifle and it will go off..

Being safe is not confined to rifles or would you disagree.

The jockeying is amusing but this thread is posted in the 'Rifles & Calibres ' section which coloured my view 🙄
 
They are all "loaded" unless the bolt is out. At least that is how I was taught to treat them. I still stick to this, particularly after a guy I knew shot his wife in the head at three feet. It was sort of "The District Commissioner in the living room with the 375 H & H" to misquote from Cluedo.

David.
 
What problem? I didn't say that it was a problem. A drop test as a matter of course works for some on here as a safety measure and why not?
One really has to wonder why people bother, stalking deer, how many deer have got away because you’ve not got one up the spout!

No bloody wonder there’s a deer problem in this country, hardly anyone’s got a bullet up the spout🙈🙈

Just proves a point, you can’t rely on most of the SD congregation kill. Bugger all
 
Owners of Blaser rifles actually believe or are brain washed into believing the hype that they have a safe rifle. What happens to often is after shooting an animal the rifle of course get's a second round chambered... just in case. In this moment the rifle is cocked, there is no safety and the hunter is occupied following his running animal ... handling the rifle in the fire condition. This seems to be a big issue with Blaser shooters according my my friend in Germany who runs a hunting school.
One gripe I have is the ultra lightly adjusted triggers on hunting rifles, some seem to really need a 2oz benchrest trigger on Betsy.

edi
 
The jockeying is amusing but this thread is posted in the 'Rifles & Calibres ' section which coloured my view 🙄
Disappointing you view is blinkerd to only one discipline....Do you sit waiting for teal/pigeons with empty chambers or should I ask you that in the Other Shooting and Keepering section. :doh:
 
I do not walk the bush with a loaded bolt action rifle

Closed bolt over empty chamber with eased spring

I don’t care who told me to do otherwise

This is a rifle state I’ve adopted and accompanied rifle drills I’ve practiced for years

Perhaps continuity is king - what ever system adopted, stick to it religiously

Deviation creates uncertainty which might lead to error
 
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Owners of Blaser rifles actually believe or are brain washed into believing the hype that they have a safe rifle. What happens to often is after shooting an animal the rifle of course get's a second round chambered... just in case. In this moment the rifle is cocked, there is no safety and the hunter is occupied following his running animal ... handling the rifle in the fire condition. This seems to be a big issue with Blaser shooters according my my friend in Germany who runs a hunting school.
One gripe I have is the ultra lightly adjusted triggers on hunting rifles, some seem to really need a 2oz benchrest trigger on Betsy.

edi
Apart from your usual denigration of all things Blaser now extended to include their owners inability to to recognise that a chambered round with a cocked bolt does not equate with a safe rifle. What evidence do you have for brainwashing/hype and that they actually believe any of this codswallop.

What is the difference between a a hunter with any other make of rifle who has also chambered a second round... "just in case. In this moment the rifle is cocked, there is no safety and the hunter is occupied following his running animal ... handling the rifle in the fire condition."

Why is it a big issue with a Blaser shooter and not for any other hunter?

I wholeheartedly agree with the unsafe aspect of a light trigger on a hunting rifle, way too many opportunities for disaster.
 
What would you do out rough shooting walk along with the gun empty...

How abt in the pigeon hide or on a teal splash at last light...

Imagine on a spaniel trial day when 4 guns walk in line then snap shoot a bird..."sorry it was empty"

There is a vast difference to people who have come through the above ways then move on to rifles, then the many joining/starting out straight into a C/F

Safety is not just confined to rifle ranks...

I was just thinking the same. I started out shooting pigeons and crows years ago. When out in the hide, guns are always loaded and ready to go. Same with walked up pheasants. Safety is on and muzzle in a safe direction always. Its not practical to have an empty gun in those situations. You'd be going home empty handed more often than not. By default, thats how I do my deer stalking, one in the tube, safety on and muzzle in safe direction
 
continuity is king - what ever system adopted, stick to it religiously

That sounds spot on. Whatever regime delivers repeatable safety in the situations in which you use a rifle. [In the African context, readiness to shoot can be a matter of safety in DG areas]

A good chambered-but-not-cocked solution used by one of the South African PHs with whom I have hunted is as below.

This mirrors the Blaser-chambered-and-decocked status. [there is no reliance on a safety as the firing pin is not compressed]

chambered_not_cocked.webp
 
Are you speaking for yourself Tim....Nothing muddled this side Open the gate Close the gate park the truck load rifle go stalking or walk to high seat get in load rifle shoot or not unload go home..

I got back to the truck last night unloaded put the rifle in the slip, looked across the road with thermal Fox! took rifle in slip sticks walked down the road into the field dumped slip loaded shot the fox walked back unloaded slipped rifle walked back to the truck..nothing muddled just the right way to go abt it.
Or do you have a different version to what I did lol
Very obliging fox.
 
Going back to Africa. In the African Bush are a number of big animals that can turn quite quickly into poo or toe jam. Most incidents occur when a local blunders into a herd or a pride by accident and surprises them. When I lived in Zambia we supported 2,000 local farmers growing Burleigh Tobacco across the Eastern Province south of the Luangwa Escarpment. There were Elephant, Buffalo and Lion all knocking about. None of the locals were armed and rarely were there any problems. Only one I recall was one gentleman who was stoned and completely bubaluss (drunk - it’s a very descriptive word - not sure of the spelling) and rode his bicycle into a herd of elephants. His death huge amusement to everybody left.

I had several times when elephants very close to my camp at night, we just carried on chatting and we would talk to elephants - we didn’t threaten them, they didn’t threaten us.

Pretty much African animals want to be left in peice, but if you are sneaking about trying to track them and do them harm, they immediately sense you are up to no good.

And the bigger ones are higher up the food chain and will on occasion turn around to teach you some good manners.

And then there are poachers, bandits and former terrorists, often well armed.

So if you are hunting then most rifles will be loaded, as a shot is potentially imminent. But in Africa - certainly in Zambia and Zim - most hunting rifles do not have slings. They get caught in the bush. So guns are carried in the hand and thus under control at all times.

Most big game rifles are Mauser type actions, and most of the big stopping rifles will have a firing pin blocking safety. The original wing safety is a very solid and secure system completely blocking the firing pin. It is not particularly fast to take off safe, hence safety taken off if things are going to get exciting. And triggers are firm, or double stage.

If its a double rifle, either a sidelock or higher grade boxlock, it is likely to have intercepting sears and thus hammers are blocked unless triggers are pulled. And many will have a lock on the safety.

Yes in the African bush PHs and Guides will often carry a rifle fully loaded, and their rifle will remain fully loaded in camp. Things can and do go wrong very quickly.

Even in Lusaka I would sleep with a loaded shotgun by my bed as there was a lot of “bandit” activity with former “freedom fighters” from Rhodesia and South Africa now unemployed and the new governments not overly keen to welcome them back. Three times in one year I had bandits open with AKs. Once they went in next door, and the paramilitaries shot them in the street, once they tried to burgle neighbouring farm, all local farmers did a sweep through the bush at night and the only thing shot was the farmers prize bull, and once when driving close to the mozambique border I saw some Renamo about 150 yards down the dirt track. I stopped and then reversed very fast and I had the crack of rounds coming past.

Nowadays many parts of Southern Africa are safe, but equally many parts are not.

If you are hunting, then the PHs primary job is your safety, and they should really know how to read animals and their intentions.

Shooting any animal that is not on licence is going to cause a lot of paperwork - buffalo not so much, but Lion, Elephant, Rhino a huge amount. And if you do shoot one make sure you have a licence to shoot one or that it has powder burns on its carcass. Much less of an issue and paperwork if you get squashed for being silly.

Let the PH deal with such situations - that is what he is being paid for and that was he has grown up with.

When stalking into animals its a different matter entirely - you are going into harms way and you can easily bump something, just like you can bump a roe buck in thick woodland. This a different matter entirely. Mostly they go the other way, but occasionally they won’t. In such situations fast shooting may be required, but again it should be the PH that opens the proceedings unless it is “your animal”.

If you bump into poachers, you will likely have a national parks, or police scout with your group armed with an AK, FAL or G3 for such situations.

And also remember that the primary job of most PHs is to be a good host and in many ways entertainment. They have a litany of good stories to tell and to make the hunts exciting so that you part with lots of dollars.
 
Hill stalking and the gun should be carried with a full mag but the bolt closed on an empty chamber .
Woodland stalking and the gun should be carried with a round chambered and the mag full.

To explain , on the hill you don't very often get something step out in-front of you unseen previously . few shots will be taken standing off hand , genrally there will be a definate stalk / crawl or general sneak in to get into the position to fire . You then load and often need to wait for the beast to stand . On odd occasions you bump one away from the heard or two or three that have separated off , its 50/50 you get onto it after working the bolt and taking a quick stander from the Argo pillar etc .

In woodland not always the correct name but farms , hedgerows and spots of thick trees etc . One in the chamber , with room to push it back down ( under the bolt ) carefull with that " under the bolt" i know of a stalker shot by his client who mistook under for infront of the bolt on the hill" . The rifle is generally in a sling on the shoulder muzzle up or down , one in the chamber safety on . most of your shots will present only for a short time in the shootable zone and just the working of the bolt will scare or alert the truly wild beast . Every tricky bit like jumping a small ditch, climbing a fence ( clear the chamber of the loaded round and close the bolt on an empty chamber ) . Those who think different either are very unsuccessful generally or don't understand what its really like or stalk pretty tame deer very used to people in the woods .

I have never stalked with anyone who did much different and i don't care what trainers say because when i did my dsc1 i was taught the most stupid impractical way of safely carrying a rifle. The two instructors where told to teach by the BDS. I later did a bit of stalking with one of them and i can tell you he certainly didn't use that way in the field ! Teaching silly stuff that is impractical won't ever be used a week out of training.
 
When I’m 20 yards from a fallow that’s popped out from nowhere in the woods cycling the action would cause the deer to Foxtrot Oscar before I could even utter an expletive.

Most safety’s are just trigger blocks so muzzle awareness has to be on point at all times. Safety always falls down to the shooter.
Exactly this. In many circumstances you have to carry a rifle with a round chambered. Safety catches are belt and braces but they're mechanical devices and all mechanical devices can fail. Therefore muzzle awareness is the only guarantee of safety.
 
So okay now that the old safety catch puzzle enigma mystery question has been well put to bed(ish) what about when you are crossing ditches/fences/walls etc?
🦊🦊
 
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