Nimrod1960
Well-Known Member
No point trying to confuse the blob with the facts when its mind was made up long ago.
HSE final lead ammunition consultation launched
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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Indeed if (as I did when I replied to the consultation) people had quoted the lead fishing weight laws) they'd have looked on it they'd have seen this on the UK GOV website:
So as I argued that'd mean that for all use English #8 lead shot would (by the Government's own logic) be allowed and, for those shooting deer with lead slug through 12 bore guns under the "farmers' exemption) so would lead Brenneke or Foster slug. I mentioned this in email to CPSA also and on here in one for the threads started or viewed by the BASC contributor here.
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Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
As has been pointed out many times, there are two levels of lead poisoning.
1) acute levels where you are exposed to high levels and you become ill quickly. Breathing in lead dust, or ingesting paint.
An example reported last year
www.bbc.co.uk
2) chronic exposure where low level environmental exposure builds up in body tissues. Environmental exposure is from breathing in or ingesting lead and lead compounds. Stomach acids are about the same acid levels as battery acids so any lead ingested will be exposed to acid and will be partially dissolved and adsorbed. Smaller particles the quicker this will happen. Meat is also acidic, so lead shot in meat will also dissolve.
And lead builds up in body tissues. World Health Organisation is very clear about the dangers of lead to health.
Exposure to lead in children can bring about all sorts of deliquency. In adults problems with fertility and as we get older cognitive capacity.
There are also studies showing high correlation between elavated levels of lead in your bones and blood and the bodies ability to control disease, in particular cancers.
There are therapies being developed for cancer treatments that involve removal of lead from the body. And we are not talking about high levels, we are talking micro or indeed nano grams per litre of blood.
These have all been covered multiple times on this forum. The big challenge with lead poisoning is that other than putting it through you at high velocity, the effects of lead exposure are long term and cumulative so somewhat difficult to say that eating that lead shot duck in 1980 or cleaning off that lead paint in 2000 has brought about the leukaemia you are now dying from.
1) acute levels where you are exposed to high levels and you become ill quickly. Breathing in lead dust, or ingesting paint.
An example reported last year
Walsall firing range staff treated for lead poisoning
The UK Health Security Agency says it is checking a recent change to ventilation at the building.
www.bbc.co.uk
2) chronic exposure where low level environmental exposure builds up in body tissues. Environmental exposure is from breathing in or ingesting lead and lead compounds. Stomach acids are about the same acid levels as battery acids so any lead ingested will be exposed to acid and will be partially dissolved and adsorbed. Smaller particles the quicker this will happen. Meat is also acidic, so lead shot in meat will also dissolve.
And lead builds up in body tissues. World Health Organisation is very clear about the dangers of lead to health.
Exposure to lead in children can bring about all sorts of deliquency. In adults problems with fertility and as we get older cognitive capacity.
There are also studies showing high correlation between elavated levels of lead in your bones and blood and the bodies ability to control disease, in particular cancers.
There are therapies being developed for cancer treatments that involve removal of lead from the body. And we are not talking about high levels, we are talking micro or indeed nano grams per litre of blood.
These have all been covered multiple times on this forum. The big challenge with lead poisoning is that other than putting it through you at high velocity, the effects of lead exposure are long term and cumulative so somewhat difficult to say that eating that lead shot duck in 1980 or cleaning off that lead paint in 2000 has brought about the leukaemia you are now dying from.
Envillegc1
Well-Known Member
And you are surprised?
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
So, all those that regularly eat shot meat are slowly suffering from lead poisoning?
The evidence simply does not exist to even partially prove this.
And quoting the WHO, really??
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
I didn’t realise it was required for one to post on here if one had responded to this consultation. Probably best NOT to assume that just because a member hasn’t posted to say they have responded, that they haven’t responded to this or the previous questionnaire
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Couldn't care less with your contribution unless you can supply an actual account of an individual becoming ill from eating game shot with lead projectiles. It's been happening for over 300 years so if as you and others suggest get the proof.As has been pointed out many times, there are two levels of lead poisoning.
1) acute levels where you are exposed to high levels and you become ill quickly. Breathing in lead dust, or ingesting paint.
An example reported last year
Walsall firing range staff treated for lead poisoning
The UK Health Security Agency says it is checking a recent change to ventilation at the building.
2) chronic exposure where low level environmental exposure builds up in body tissues. Environmental exposure is from breathing in or ingesting lead and lead compounds. Stomach acids are about the same acid levels as battery acids so any lead ingested will be exposed to acid and will be partially dissolved and adsorbed. Smaller particles the quicker this will happen. Meat is also acidic, so lead shot in meat will also dissolve.
And lead builds up in body tissues. World Health Organisation is very clear about the dangers of lead to health.
Exposure to lead in children can bring about all sorts of deliquency. In adults problems with fertility and as we get older cognitive capacity.
There are also studies showing high correlation between elavated levels of lead in your bones and blood and the bodies ability to control disease, in particular cancers.
There are therapies being developed for cancer treatments that involve removal of lead from the body. And we are not talking about high levels, we are talking micro or indeed nano grams per litre of blood.
These have all been covered multiple times on this forum. The big challenge with lead poisoning is that other than putting it through you at high velocity, the effects of lead exposure are long term and cumulative so somewhat difficult to say that eating that lead shot duck in 1980 or cleaning off that lead paint in 2000 has brought about the leukaemia you are now dying from.
I mean do bare in mind that we are somehow allowed to breathe known toxic particles from catalytic converters used in vehicles and don't forget the nuclear accident in Britain and Ukraine that have caused countless cancers and are continuing to do so.
Don't forget the government's are and have been perfectly happy to allow all sorts of toxic sprays to be used in agriculture.
And they screwed the British bee population over by allowing Veroa mite in, the list goes on.
Have they stopped roofers using lead? Nope.
It's a croc and everyone knows it.
All it is is the big boys sucking it up to try and point score.
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
BASC would be better served by asking why their purported 150,000+ membership didn't respond TBH.
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
Maybe they should also have asked the opinion of their members as to the ‘voluntary move away from lead ammunition’ as pushed by BASC.
The HSE legislation was entirely foreseeable for all but the most blinkered from the moment BASC decided to concede defeat and volunteer to move away from lead.
RF76
Well-Known Member
The simple answer is that BASC have achieved more damage within field sports than any anti could've dreamed to hope to achieve. Whether it be through ill thought action, lack of member consultation, weakness in the face of political adversity when the failings of certain services should be highlighted (NHS Mental Health) in the public arena following tragic events and more.
BASC as an entity can never please all its Members, but by positioning themselves as the so-called self proclaimed voice of field sports, if that were the case then there would be no need for alternate organisations to have been created if everyone's needs were effectively being met by an organisation formed to represent.
I am a member of 3 organisations (incl BASC), and two work very well to support the endeavours to promote, defend and highlight the work of the field sports community. BASC it has to be said is talked about with such disdain by other organisations (not envy or jealousy) and to some degree I find that sad, but also reflective of just how much BASC has put its own agenda first over the decades, and created such anger and division within its Membership.
The reason that there is a low response to things such as the HSE Consultation is largely based on BASC's actions of the past and it now lacks the ability to communicate, or convey important messaging because it is simply no longer credible, trustworthy or fit for purpose in the eyes of its membership past and present and the blame for this lays squarely at BASC's door.
Going forward there is only one solution. All organisations need to get around a table, forget the division of power and put their cards on the table. There needs to be a coming together of resources and to begin to work together to build back the public will and support, to begin to demonstrate ad highlight the good works (ie Conservation) and at each turn raise legal challenges (still waiting to hear news about legally challenging the removal of Closed Seasons of Male Deer in Scotland and the Sporting Tax) where applicable. And above all else, there needs to be constant communication(s) to the members of all organisations of the decision to do so.
But, as we know it is unlikely to happen.
if the government really cared about public health they would have totally banned smoking years ago.
Given the current state of the world, u.k. economy, cost of living and hence shooting industry, just read on SD the supply problems and cost of primers and powder and not a chance that the quantity of steel shot required will be available or real biodegradable wads in two or even possibly five years, we either need a ten year transition or supply and demand will see cartridge prices for clay and vermin shooting surpass that which the average person will pay or want to pay, we are very close to that now.
Just ask any RFD how business is, Fiocchi u.k. last week issued a special offer to the trade on their plastic wad litespeed clay pigeon cartridges, Just Cartridges were offering free delivery, conclusion sales must be slow.
Shooting in the U.k. is so mixed and diverse, from muzzle loaders, .410 to 10gauge, which countries like the NL do not have they according to another forum only shoot 20gauge and 12gauge, so banning lead was not such big issue plus they did not have a tradition of using fibre wads, the UK is the single biggest user of fibre wads.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
So have a read of
Marination increases the bioavailability of lead in game meat shot with lead ammunition - PMC
As a consequence of the toxicological lead characteristics, a reduction of its exposure should consider all sources. Game meat might contain elevated levels of lead due to the use of lead ammunition. The aim of the present study was to investigate ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
And
Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC
Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
As for long term health impacts
Lead exposure at firing ranges—a review - Environmental Health
Background Lead (Pb) is a toxic substance with well-known, multiple, long-term, adverse health outcomes. Shooting guns at firing ranges is an occupational necessity for security personnel, police officers, members of the military, and increasingly a recreational activity by the public. In the...
ehjournal.biomedcentral.com
To state that there are no studies showing the harmful effects of lead is just plain incorrect.
You are perfectly at liberty to not read, or to think the earth is flat but there have been plenty of scientific studies looking at lead ingestion and harmful effects.
Most of the work has been done in pigs as you would not be allowed to do such studies in man. A lot has been done in the US and in mainland Europe.
There is one study that should be done and that would be to examine the medical records of all shooters for disease associated with excess levels of lead. The data set is there, all shooters records are flagged, but needs somebody to sponsor the work and to get such studies approved.
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
The fact that there are studies showing elevated levels of lead in people who use firing ranges and eat game meat isn't in question, it's what harm has been caused by it.
Are we shooters or game meat eaters dying of lead poisoning?
So why hasn't it been done?
It's because it would be a waste of time, as no one could prove conclusively that the lead came from bullets or airborne lead.
Again, are we banning all lead from the environment, or are we removing guns from the environment?
So have a read of
Marination increases the bioavailability of lead in game meat shot with lead ammunition - PMC
As a consequence of the toxicological lead characteristics, a reduction of its exposure should consider all sources. Game meat might contain elevated levels of lead due to the use of lead ammunition. The aim of the present study was to investigate ...
And
Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC
Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...
As for long term health impacts
Lead exposure at firing ranges—a review - Environmental Health
Background Lead (Pb) is a toxic substance with well-known, multiple, long-term, adverse health outcomes. Shooting guns at firing ranges is an occupational necessity for security personnel, police officers, members of the military, and increasingly a recreational activity by the public. In the...
To state that there are no studies showing the harmful effects of lead is just plain incorrect.
You are perfectly at liberty to not read, or to think the earth is flat but there have been plenty of scientific studies looking at lead ingestion and harmful effects.
Most of the work has been done in pigs as you would not be allowed to do such studies in man. A lot has been done in the US and in mainland Europe.
There is one study that should be done and that would be to examine the medical records of all shooters for disease associated with excess levels of lead. The data set is there, all shooters records are flagged, but needs somebody to sponsor the work and to get such studies approved
My issue is not that lead is harmful to human health, as indeed is a lot of substances, like smoking, which really then comes down to personal choice, ie people chose to smoke despite known significant health risks, so why should that not be the case for game meet? simply label it that the product may contain lead.
But if no market for it then it is untenable to shoot it, which is why BASC went for the five year voluntary transition to save the large commercial game shoots. Possibly not expecting it to impact on clay pigeon shooting.
However given that some clay pigeon shot sizes are suitable for live quarry shooting, the HSE has concluded that the only way to be certain lead is not used on live quarry is by a total ban.
The impact on fauna and flora is very limited for clay shooting but due to the above they cannot permitted its use.
Air gun pellets, rifle target use is also very little impact on fauna and flora hence no ban.
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
The other aspect is how many birds shot on big commercial shoots actually make it into the commercial food chain?
It wasn't so long ago stories surfaced of birds being buried or burned, and I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg.
We don't go on game days so we can eat pheasant and partridge, we go for the sport.
these are a couple of so called biodegradable wads, an obturator and part of a wad, they have been outside in the garden for many months now, neither have significantly degraded, hardly a replacement for fibre wads, which shows the limitations and difference in performance of the biodegradable wads, which is why i keep saying we as customers should be able to make an informed choice by the manufactures stating on the packaging how long their wads typically take to degrade in the uk countryside, as it could be many years.
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Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Talking of wads, I'm sick of seeing shotgun wads on beaches. Any plastic on beaches is bad enough but the number of wads showing up is alarming, how long is it that the antis latch on to that one??
So all them compliers using steel shot with a smug grin on theirs faces have actually done more harm to the environment! Go figure...
So all them compliers using steel shot with a smug grin on theirs faces have actually done more harm to the environment! Go figure...
StephenToast
Well-Known Member
Well yes. That's the point.
Personally I'll be happy to see a lead ban if it stops all of the utter nonsense coming from either side. There are already alternatives for the majority of shooters, and what is holding back the rest is complacency within the industry.
If the HSE or the government mean to ban lead they should stop messing about and set a date for a full ban and give the industry a hard deadline to work to, or... Don't ban it at all and leave people with the choice to use lead or not.
Just to say- if you ban lead in all rifle calibres then most will be obsolete.
To add my local gallery club the average is Is 60-70 Many people older. Sunday range days are their thing they live for. They love the social aspect more than the shooting. Ban all lead then most will give up shooting leading to having their social life and even having a skill cut out of their lives. This will lead to serious consequences in my eyes!
To add my local gallery club the average is Is 60-70 Many people older. Sunday range days are their thing they live for. They love the social aspect more than the shooting. Ban all lead then most will give up shooting leading to having their social life and even having a skill cut out of their lives. This will lead to serious consequences in my eyes!
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
Well yes, but think of the positives.
We can export all that game meat that no one abroad wants.
And think of all those people that won't die of lead poisoning, that wouldn't have died anyway?
Then there's all those wild birds that no one can find, who die every year from ingesting lead shot.
Every cloud my friend, every cloud....
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