Immobilon

Apache

Well-Known Member
According to this http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00Chem/ChComplex/xylazine.htm it has a withdrawal period of 14 days if used in cattle. Does the withdrawal period relate to the specis rather than the drug?
The withdrawal period quoted on your link if for a different drug altogether - xylazine - a common sedative used in cattle/horses/dogs/cats. Sedaxylan (a brand of xylazine) only had 24 hour meat withdrawal in this country

If there is no MRL, it can't be used in animals for human consumption. Even if it has a withdrawal in NZ, it doesn’t apply in the UK. Xylazine is licensed in the UK, but only for Zoo deer. As far as I am aware it would not be possible to use any anesthetics or sedative on a deer and it then allow it into the food chain.
I have to respectfully disagree with you there! So long as the drug has an established MRL and is licensed in another food producing animal species in the UK or Europe then my reading of the cascade is that the drug can be administered to the animal and the meat be used for consumption after the statutory withdrawal period has been served (minimum of 28 days).

I think you would struggle to knock down a deer using just Xylazine and maybe butorphanol. As far as I know no other anaesthetics have MRLs or a licence in food producing animals, ketamine does not.

It is the one good thing (as a vet) that I think has come out of Europe classifying a horse as a food producing animals - many more dugs with withdrawal periods. I quite often use butorphanol in cattle off licence but legally under the cascade.

You can see the logic, but it is at times potty. The best example is the local anaesthetic, lignocaine. No MRL due to cost, yet used daily by dentists. Potty. Right, off hobby horse
The issue with lignocaine (if I remember correctly) is one of the bovine metabolites is a known carcinogen that us as simple monogastrics don't produce.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Have been talking to a deer farmer in Aus who uses Rompon on Reds. I didnt think we used Rompon on Reds over here, but it would seem a better choice as I believe it does have a withdrawal period. Can anyone put me straight on the subject please. Is this a dosage issue?

The withdrawal period quoted on your link if for a different drug altogether - xylazine - a common sedative used in cattle/horses/dogs/cats. Sedaxylan (a brand of xylazine) only had 24 hour meat withdrawal in this country
I think you would struggle to knock down a deer using just Xylazine and maybe butorphanol.
But I thought xylazine is Rompun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylazine

G,day
Rompun (xylazine) is used to velvet all red deer down here which don't go into a hydraulic crush.
Why risk a years return from each animal, smashing the velvet in a drop floor.Also using xylazine is more humane.
Straight rompun is far better on reds than on fallow.
If you use someone with experience on fallow it would be good to get their opinion about the reds.

I have always used 100mg and have never used 300mg. I typically use 2cc for my 2 year olds. Lately I have begun to use 3cc on those that are 3 years old and older even though much of the time 2cc is enough. Wish they made a 2 1/2cc dart. Variables on dosage sometimes lend themselves to why you are knocking them down. And once in awhile you can run into a deer that is Xylazine resistant and requires more than the ''normal working dosage''.

Not trying to be clever Apache but if the Americans use it and so do the Australians and if it has a witholding time here and if the name immobillon sends shivers down vets backs then it sounds like Xylazine is the way to go.

Fewer health and safety issues, a withdrawal period and a happier vet. Or am I reading it wrong again.
 

Buchan

Well-Known Member
Is it not lack of UGTs that is the problem?
Well blow me! You're right (having done some reading round). I've been carrying that (incorrect) information in my head for 20+ years and now know better. Internet forums are great in this respect. If fact I've learnt that the C450 (sounds like a rifle) makes the situation worse. Cheers!
 

Dalua

Well-Known Member
Well blow me! You're right (having done some reading round). I've been carrying that (incorrect) information in my head for 20+ years and now know better. Internet forums are great in this respect. If fact I've learnt that the C450 (sounds like a rifle) makes the situation worse. Cheers!
We live and learn!

I had to look it up too - made me refresh my memory, but I had an idea that glucuronidation is the 'safe' metabolic pathway, and which in humans has a limited capacity (hence the strict max doses for human use). Also I have a vague memory from (human) pharmacology undergrauate lectures that one mustn't give paracetamol to cats.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Having eventually found a vet who will supply immobilon and stand ready in case I inject myself with it, the day arrived to talk to the police. They obviously do not get many similar requests but they gave me a list of requirements (which I think I can meet) and now for the first time I feel that the end may be in sight.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Possibly a bad choice of words in this context!
Brilliant. LOL. You gotta go sometime. Its funny (well not really) because the policeman I spoke to knew a vet who died using it. I shall certainly ensure that I am accompanied by the vet with the suitable antidote. This may be rubbish but I assume an accident is less likely if using a projector.
 

VSS

Well-Known Member
. If there is no MRL, it can't be used in animals for human consumption...
....The best example is the local anaesthetic, lignocaine. No MRL due to cost, yet used daily by dentists. Potty. .
Lignocaine is what I use when de-horning calves, and they all go for human consumption. Get it from the vet, no bother.
 

Apache

Well-Known Member
Lignocaine is what I use when de-horning calves, and they all go for human consumption. Get it from the vet, no bother.
You should have only been getting Procaine for the last 8 years plus! Lignocaine banned a long time ago for everything but horses.
 

skippy1001

Well-Known Member
i use lignocaine in my first aid kit, very handy when trying to remove a good sized treble hook from your hand while at sea.


how about a "natural" herbal sedative for use in deer? Valerian root? green tea? opium lettuce? :doh:

skipp.
 

sharkey

Well-Known Member
But I thought xylazine is Rompun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylazine

G,day
Rompun (xylazine) is used to velvet all red deer down here which don't go into a hydraulic crush.
Why risk a years return from each animal, smashing the velvet in a drop floor.Also using xylazine is more humane.
Straight rompun is far better on reds than on fallow.
If you use someone with experience on fallow it would be good to get their opinion about the reds.

I have always used 100mg and have never used 300mg. I typically use 2cc for my 2 year olds. Lately I have begun to use 3cc on those that are 3 years old and older even though much of the time 2cc is enough. Wish they made a 2 1/2cc dart. Variables on dosage sometimes lend themselves to why you are knocking them down. And once in awhile you can run into a deer that is Xylazine resistant and requires more than the ''normal working dosage''.

Not trying to be clever Apache but if the Americans use it and so do the Australians and if it has a witholding time here and if the name immobillon sends shivers down vets backs then it sounds like Xylazine is the way to go.

Fewer health and safety issues, a withdrawal period and a happier vet. Or am I reading it wrong again.
Just found this.
this is a conversation from another forum answering an English deer keepers question on Xylazine.
I am the Aus farmer/game manager & actually use xylazine on red deer.This is the first pharagraph,notice I did not give the dose.
The second pharagraph is from a whitetail breeder in the US.These doses relate to his experience with whitetail not reds.

Xylazine alone is much better on red deer than it is on fallow.
On quiet & captive deer its all thats required if the user understands its limits & has good skill & stockmanship.Cover the eyes & no noise ASAP is the way.
If they're stirred up,stop,& come back another day,or use an anasthetic with the tranquiliser.
I will use azaperone (6 hours withholding down here) with xylazine if the with holding is a problem on reds.(Ive just moved 36 eastern reds from a large enclosure where they were being poached,so you can imagine their temperament,with this brew).
I dry the xylazine to 200mg to the cc & the stresnil (azaperone)to 80mg to the cc so as to get more in the dart.Check your licence frirst?
Xylazine alone is not as effective on fallow (tame deer its ok) so I always use an anasthetic,one of the cyclohexanes.Ketamine is an S8 here,its cheap but to much trouble,& can have bad side effects.Telazol/Zoletil is better than ketamine,with fewer problems,it is more expensive though.
On wild reds I use the Zoletil with xylazine,& reverse after 45mins with yohimbine.
I haven't used an opioid for capture in years.To much paperwork & not needed on the dozen or so species of deer & antelope I work with.
The negative & this is a big consideration.These drugs are not as instantly reversable as an opioid,again planning & stockmanship are more important with these alternatives.

Its interesting seeing a capture franchise starting in the Uk.
Down here we do a uni course,& refreshers every three years,are registered with the firearms registry & the vet board.
We must have an established professional relationship with a vet & work under their suppervision (beside you, if an opiod) every mg is registered & an annual return /audit on med's.
We can not charge a fee for the service,unless a vet!
I can only dart my own deer(or my managers can with proof of the relationship/ownership)& must take complete responsability for the welfare of the animal.There is no doubt who will be charged if things go sour.
I get lots of free deer (but? time/drugs) enjoy the challenge & love working with deer,so mostly its a public relations exercise,"Hunter saves bambi".
A business with profit??
As for experience,Ive met very few good capture experts in my forty years on deer.Maybe three I would recomend,two are wildlife vets.
Deer breeders/farmers/keepers are wise to have this skill & ability,but I have never seen a deer business run of the end of a dart gun.

Cheers Sharkey
 

sharkey

Well-Known Member
After a reread it would appear howa243 was that English Keeper.

G'day mate.Yes, our cusbro's across the ditch did win the world cup.
It'll be months before we can get any sense from them.LOL.
Still after the quakes,mine disaster,oil spills,etc,they could do with some cheering up.
I thought of our discussion after Aus knocked SA out of the world cup.
"Captchaman" hasn't spoken to me since.
I don't think the yanks took your remark about a world cup with more than one country with humour.Very cheeky.

Cheers Sharkey

PS. Hpoe you get youre boys feet sorted out soon.
 

howa243

Well-Known Member
Morning Sharkey good to see you casting your net a bit further. Have rather missed our conversations. As you can see live capture and availability of the required drugs is a hottish potato here. It will no doubt be good to have your input. I dont think I want to chat with you about rugby. lol

I do hope you dont mind me mentioning your experiences but I sometimes get the impression that Brits dont think that they can learn from others.
 
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