Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[Brave Echo Niner]

The big problem with all this is preparation!

Think forward and order in advance, its not rocket science.

But that would take organisation and a willingness to try new things - all sounds a bit scary...

The writing has been on the wall for years, those that chose not to look for alternatives when it first became evident have a bit of work to do.
Those of us that did move over earlier generally have a fair few bullets kicking around, can wait for the backorders to arrive and will have no issue over the next couple of years.

As the saying goes: "Proper preparation and planning prevents p*ss poor performance!"


Ben

 

[Dunwaters]

Making sale illegal is the real lever. Lead ammo would just disappear as it is consumed during a period of change and not replenished in the shops.

One or two zealots holding onto illegal ammo is not going to make much difference in the real world, and as you say their licence would be rescinded much as now should someone be in possession of say armour piercing rounds.

Have a look at the EU proposals, after implementation date, sale, use and possession of lead all become illegal.
These lawmakers aren’t dumb, they know ammo has a long shelf life and take a fairly pragmatic view of what people are likely to do to circumvent a ban…
Incidentally the EU ban will include fishing weights, except for commercial fishermen, I wonder will your guys poke a stick into that particular hornets nest?

 

[Dunwaters]

so would a lot of firearms disappear by that i mean become obsolete.

edit to add it think the biggest driver at this time is cost, the rapidly increasing costs of all shooting will drive many away from the sport and handicap recruitment into the sport, hence declining from probably its current peak.
You can start to see that happing now by looking at the age group of clay shooters at the non commercial clubs.

Its a harsh thing to say but any 12 bore not chambered for 70mm loads at least has been obsolete for a long time.
Those older guns in 2” and 21/2“are accidents waiting to happen or specialist tools for the expert depending on your view.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

But that would take organisation and a willingness to try new things - all sounds a bit scary...

The writing has been on the wall for years, those that chose not to look for alternatives when it first became evident have a bit of work to do.
Those of us that did move over earlier generally have a fair few bullets kicking around, can wait for the backorders to arrive and will have no issue over the next couple of years.

As the saying goes: "Proper preparation and planning prevents p*ss poor performance!"


Ben

Amen brother!

 

[Liveonce]

This doesn't seem to have happened in Denmark, where they have been shooting with non-lead for nearly 25 years and the size of the shooting community is proportionately larger than in the UK (according to FACE website).

Different type of shooting and terrain I am told, plus one of their top five plastic pollution on their foreshore is plastic wads. Hence why BASC probably considered the need for biodegradable wads to go hand in hand with the transition to non toxic shot.

 

[Liveonce]

Its a harsh thing to say but any 12 bore not chambered for 70mm loads at least has been obsolete for a long time.
Those older guns in 2” and 21/2“are accidents waiting to happen or specialist tools for the expert depending on your view.

easy to say unless you own a valuable family 2.1/2 gun past down from generation to generation.

Not saying you are wrong, then the issue with 28ga and .410 and .22lr

Never going to please all the people all the time, but will any lead ban shut the likes of wild justice up? When killing for fun is really what they do not like.

 

[Liveonce]

Amen brother!

very much easier transition when all that leaves the barrel is a single projectile.

would be interesting to see how the money breaks down across the industry, split between ammunition lead and non toxic and cartridges lead and non toxic. Then jobs employed in stalking vs jobs in clay shooting.

 

[Whitefront]

Different type of shooting and terrain I am told, plus one of their top five plastic pollution on their foreshore is plastic wads. Hence why BASC probably considered the need for biodegradable wads to go hand in hand with the transition to non toxic shot.

Yes, plastic wads are a problem, not least because they are easily recognisable and can only have come from the shooting community, unlike other forms of single-use plastic. I believe Danish hunters have proposed a legal ban on them starting in two or three years' time.

 

[User00040]

Making sale illegal is the real lever. Lead ammo would just disappear as it is consumed during a period of change and not replenished in the shops.

Plenty of REACH banned powder still kicking about if you look hard enough. If shops do a sale to get rid of it (doubt!) then it will still be in cabinets decades later.

One or two zealots holding onto illegal ammo is not going to make much difference in the real world, and as you say their licence would be rescinded much as now should someone be in possession of say armour piercing rounds.

I'm thankful that you don't have any say in firearms licensing.

 

[25 Sharps]

My reckoning

1) Rifles - plenty of good non lead options now for all stalking rifles with bullets that are accurate, provide quick and humane kills and leave nice clean carcasses.

And there seem to big strides taken in bringing venison to the consumer market place.

2) Shotguns - falls into two parts

a) shot - steel shot is cheap, and works. If you got a steel shot proof, then high velocity works really well and gives you kills out to 50 yards. Normal velocities work well enough for most guns and most shooting.

Bismuth is an option for valuable old guns. But is expensive. But if you pick your shots does it add a lot to the cost of a days shooting?

b) Wads. Steel shot really needs some form of cup or sleeve to give good performance. Plastic wads provide this. But plastic wads are full of their own challenges.

There are a good number of innovative approaches to producing a fully biodegradable shot cup type wads, from all sorts of different approaches. Some are using plastic type materials that break down on exposure to water - still concerns over nano plastic content though. Others are more of a moulded fibre.

Overall there are now several brands on the market that just seem to work, judging by reviews etc.

Big challenge still though is volume, and making them widely available without a ridiculous price.

Younger generations of shooters are using over and unders and anything less than 10 years old is probably steel shot proofed, or can be made so by simple change of chokes.

Older shooters using old prewar guns that are tightly choked may have a challenge, but with normal game choking there are already and certainly will be good affordable options on the market. Whether Bodget and Bang will stock them is another matter entirely.

I think it will be a question of planning ahead and ordering them in.

16, 28 and 410s - market is much smaller and these will be the last to be available. There are a couple of options for 16 and 28, but not yet for the 410.

What about all the rifles that aren’t used for shooting deer? Far more aren’t than are, and alternatives are very limited if available at all.

 

[25 Sharps]

As for making the ban stick in the real world, how much lead would you keep around if the penalty for use or possession was loss of SGC and FAC?

That would be thoroughly unreasonable without a reasonable transition period of 5-10 years.

Unless of course they pay reasonable compensation for handing ammunition in. The bigger issue is the suppliers keeping up with products to replace lead bullets.

 

[25 Sharps]

But that would take organisation and a willingness to try new things - all sounds a bit scary...

The writing has been on the wall for years, those that chose not to look for alternatives when it first became evident have a bit of work to do.
Those of us that did move over earlier generally have a fair few bullets kicking around, can wait for the backorders to arrive and will have no issue over the next couple of years.

As the saying goes: "Proper preparation and planning prevents p*ss poor performance!"


Ben

Yes, but for those that can’t get the bullets, you Boy Scouts having stockpiles isn’t going to get the deer shot is it?

Or foxes or rabbits for that matter.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Yes, but for those that can’t get the bullets, you Boy Scouts having stockpiles isn’t going to get the deer shot is it?

Or foxes or rabbits for that matter.

Yes but if people had payed attention and took notice of said writing on the wall ALL those years ago, you lot wouldnt be in a flap now would you!

It was plain as day 10 plus years ago!

I also hate to say, shotgun shooting doesn’t affect me or rabbits and as for foxes they get a copper wollop!!

I do genuinely fell sorry for you plate smashers!

 

[Heym SR20]

What about all the rifles that aren’t used for shooting deer? Far more aren’t than are, and alternatives are very limited if available at all.

Well the phasing out of lead is only being applied to animals going into the food chain. For all those rifles being used for target shooting they will continue to be able to use lead bullets.

And if / when there is a requirement to use non lead ammunition on ranges then there are already non toxic bullets suitable. Both Fox and Peregrine already make a non toxic training and target bullets that are about half the price of their hunting bullets - in other words the same sort of price as existing lead bullets.

And as for lever action / gallery pistol calibre rifles - again plenty of non toxic options have been developed. Whether they are available in the UK - haven’t a clue, but once demand is here then they will become available.
As for manufacturing capacity, beauty of monolithics is that they can be manufactured on CNC lathes which are readily available, rather than needing specialist stamping and swaging machines.

And many military users are also switching across to non toxic for live fire training etc. Some is steel core, so probably illegal for civilian use, but a lot is just solid copper.

Yes some older vintage rifles will become obsolete. And as for the 243. Well @Edinburgh Rifles rifles have developed a perfectly 100gn non toxic load that will work out to 250 plus. I suspect plenty will rubbish it, cos its a dumpy round nosed bullet, but it shoots well in my 30 year old standard twist rate 243 and drops deer dead at 200 and thats all thats needed.

So no I am not worried about the switch across.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes but if people had payed attention and took notice of said writing on the wall ALL those years ago, you lot wouldnt be in a flap now would you!

It was plain as day 10 plus years ago!

I also hate to say, shotgun shooting doesn’t affect me or rabbits and as for foxes they get a copper wollop!!

I do genuinely fell sorry for you plate smashers!

I am not in a flap.

Vermin copper rimfire rounds are poor in terms of accuracy, fox round options are very limited.

I already have 3 lead free deer loads developed, 2 being yew tree who are just down the road.

As for targets, hopefully they’ll see sense and allow us to carry on using lead.

 

[25 Sharps]

Well the phasing out of lead is only being applied to animals going into the food chain. For all those rifles being used for target shooting they will continue to be able to use lead bullets.


So no I am not worried about the switch across.

No, the HSE consultation is on all bullets and ammunition used on all situations, it is most definitely not limited to animals going into the food chain, lead in the environment is as much if not more of a concern.

Currently the NRA are only tentatively allowing expanding copper to a maximum range of 300 yards. Solid copper are still banned.

 

[User00040]

As for manufacturing capacity, beauty of monolithics is that they can be manufactured on CNC lathes which are readily available, rather than needing specialist stamping and swaging machines.

Any idea on the setup costs and wastage involved to machine copper projectiles with sufficient uniformity to provide a consistent diameter and ballistic coefficient?

QC costs (if any is done at all) will be high.

Yes some older vintage rifles will become obsolete. And as for the 243. Well @Edinburgh Rifles rifles have developed a perfectly 100gn non toxic load that will work out to 250 plus. I suspect plenty will rubbish it, cos its a dumpy round nosed bullet, but it shoots well in my 30 year old standard twist rate 243 and drops deer dead at 200 and thats all thats needed.

250, 200, meters, yards, feet, inches?

Awfully broad brush strokes here.

Even a round lead ball fired from a musket will produce dead deer, declaring 'COPPER WORKS!!!' is akin to saying water is wet...

 

[Robs]

A blanket ban on lead for all shooting will probably happen and everyone will be aghast. Lots of moaning and wailing and didn't see that coming. Deer stalkers will suffer the least, next the gunshops, but the rimfire users, airgun users and targets shooters will be devastated. Unfortunately, the shooting organisations pushing the ban do not care at all, just so long as we can shoot our pheasants. The bearded muzzleloaders are knackered. Blanket bans are the expectation these days. In the round, the shooting industry / community / sports will get a real kicking. This is not about what goes in the food chain, this is about not throwing the whole shooting community under the bus.

 

[Dunwaters]

That would be thoroughly unreasonable without a reasonable transition period of 5-10 years.

Unless of course they pay reasonable compensation for handing ammunition in. The bigger issue is the suppliers keeping up with products to replace lead bullets.

If the aim is to get rid of lead shot and lead bullets in game, then the transition will have to be pretty immediate.
How long were the wildfowlers given?
There’ll probably be an accommodation for target sports and .22 rimfire which may help spread things out a bit.

 

[Dunwaters]

easy to say unless you own a valuable family 2.1/2 gun past down from generation to generation.

Not saying you are wrong, then the issue with 28ga and .410 and .22lr

Never going to please all the people all the time, but will any lead ban shut the likes of wild justice up? When killing for fun is really what they do not like.

You can still use your old guns, but you’ll be shooting expensive custom bismuth loads, same thing with the small bores. There’s no viable substitute for lead in the .22 so we’ll be keeping it for a while yet