Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[Ratel]

Where is the evidence, in the UK, that lead bullets in the environment are consistently killing raptors?

I'll agree with you there. If lead is doing that, why are there more raptors than ever in the UK. Buzzards are everywhere, not only in their usual haunts where they were for hundreds of years, and Kites are more common than blackbirds where I live. This demise of song birds is certainly the result of raptor increases certainly not lead (unless it is propelled).
With regard to lead/copper, they are both toxic substances and copper is well known for it's toxic effect on trees and other flora. Probably in a few years all copper water pipes will become the evil that lead was reputed to be, and it will all become plastic, oh wait a minute . Then we will find that the components of plastic will be poisonous etc, etc, etc.
There is no end to Woke and Human stupidity.

 

[Basil H]

The restriction on lead shot for wildfowl shooting originates not from the Birds Directive but from the AEWA (African-Eurasian Migratory Waterfowl Agreement).
Like it or not, the evidence for this impact on birds is strong and goes back as far as the late nineteenth century.

 

[Dunwaters]

You are making your own rules, the birds directive is dumb on ammunition restrictions but it requires you to protect all birds, which is why it’s relevant and it’s still binding.
We’re going back over old ground here, and reviewing ground already lost, which is pointless.
What’s coming next is the important factor.

 

[Liveonce]

As for the future of steel shot using single use plastic, ”The story of plastic”, sky TV is worth watching.

 

[Whitefront]

Indeed, there is no future in single use plastic wads for lead or steel shot, which is why the shooting orgs want to phase them out. Fortunately, there are a growing number of biodegradable organic alternatives - which is one of the reasons Danish hunters (who got rid of lead more than two decades ago) have now decided to call time on plastic wads as well. Examples include the Eley Eco-wad, the Gambore Quadseal, the Bioammo wad and the Jocker Bio-wad. I've used the starch-based Eco-wad with steel shot for three seasons now. Excellent. About to trial Bioammo Blue.

 

[Liveonce]

Indeed, there is no future in single use plastic wads for lead or steel shot, which is why the shooting orgs want to phase them out. Fortunately, there are a growing number of biodegradable organic alternatives - which is one of the reasons Danish hunters (who got rid of lead more than two decades ago) have now decided to call time on plastic wads as well. Examples include the Eley Eco-wad, the Gambore Quadseal, the Bioammo wad and the Jocker Bio-wad. I've used the starch-based Eco-wad with steel shot for three seasons now. Excellent. About to trial Bioammo Blue.

indeed however they are not all created equal, and if the biodegradable plastic was an easy fix the packaging industry would have done so, given its massive size and value.

We have no benchmark or standard for how the wad should degrade in the open environment, I.e in hours, days, months or years, and some look to still need years.

Only claims that they are made from material that conforms to EN 13432 google it then consider if that is suitable.

Just because the material conforms to EN 13432 does not mean the product ie wad complies.

Some are asking questions of the manufactures as to some of the claims, one cartridge manufacture displayed on their packaging the compostable certification logo, but the wad did not meet the certification standard required to carry the logo.

Without naming the company they have stated:-

“Many thanks for your email when we first launched the xxxxxxxxxx Wad product’s we did display the compostable certification logo but they have since been removed.
The material supplied and used in the xxxxxxxxxxxx Wad is certified under EN13432 certificate number xxxxxxxxxxxx but because parts of the wad component are over the maximum thickness of 1000um we cannot use this certification logo until the product is tested independently.”

However it looks that a product with a thickness greater than 1000um will not be compliant.

EN13432 is all about industrial composting and to a lesser degree home compositing packaging, not open environment degrading, and best fit for that is another standard ASTM D6954-18.

The Eley wad, is made from PVA, has been around the longest since 2013 made in Spain and the need for the other cartridge manufactures to offer competing cartridges has driven the race to introduce the other types, be that cardboard or biodegradable plastic, however as consumers we are not being given any benchmark to validate their biodegradable effectiveness.
obviously the Eley wad can be put in water and be seen to disappear in hours, but what about the others?
How about a SD members test, voluteers required to do a similar test with the other makes available.

PM me the results if you try it.

 

[StephenToast]

indeed however they are not all created equal, and if the biodegradable plastic was an easy fix the packaging industry would have done so, given its massive size and value.

We have no benchmark or standard for how the wad should degrade in the open environment, I.e in hours, days, months or years, and some look to still need years.

Only claims that they are made from material that conforms to EN 13432 google it then consider if that is suitable.

Just because the material conforms to EN 13432 does not mean the product ie wad complies.

Some are asking questions of the manufactures as to some of the claims, one cartridge manufacture displayed on their packaging the compostable certification logo, but the wad did not meet the certification standard required to carry the logo.

Without naming the company they have stated:-

“Many thanks for your email when we first launched the xxxxxxxxxx Wad product’s we did display the compostable certification logo but they have since been removed.
The material supplied and used in the xxxxxxxxxxxx Wad is certified under EN13432 certificate number xxxxxxxxxxxx but because parts of the wad component are over the maximum thickness of 1000um we cannot use this certification logo until the product is tested independently.”

However it looks that a product with a thickness greater than 1000um will not be compliant.

EN13432 is all about industrial composting and to a lesser degree home compositing packaging, not open environment degrading, and best fit for that is another standard ASTM D6954-18.

The Eley wad, is made from PVA, has been around the longest since 2013 made in Spain and the need for the other cartridge manufactures to offer competing cartridges has driven the race to introduce the other types, be that cardboard or biodegradable plastic, however as consumers we are not being given any benchmark to validate their biodegradable effectiveness.
obviously the Eley wad can be put in water and be seen to disappear in hours, but what about the others?
How about a SD members test, voluteers required to do a similar test with the other makes available.

PM me the results if you try it.

The Joker steel shotgun ammo has a cardboard wad. They are great cartridges and you don't have to worry about plastic.

 

[25 Sharps]

The restriction on lead shot for wildfowl shooting originates not from the Birds Directive but from the AEWA (African-Eurasian Migratory Waterfowl Agreement).
Like it or not, the evidence for this impact on birds is strong and goes back as far as the late nineteenth century.

Right, but what about lead bullets?

 

[Basil H]

I have no idea about lead bullets. I was simply stating a fact about the original regulation on lead shot in wetlands which is something I know a bit about as I was Conservation Officer for a wildfowling club for many years. There was much criticism of BASC back then but they could really do no more than conduct a slow "fighting withdrawal" which gave time for effective non-lead alternatives to be marketed.

 

[Heym SR20]

Right, but what about lead bullets?

The trouble with lead bullets is that on hitting an animal there is enough energy that the lead melts and then you have a column of molten sprayed into the caracass. Some of the lead will harden into lead fragments that we can find. Much will end as microscopic particles that are very easily ingested. Some of the bullet will remain in one piece and exit. How much? Well it very much depends on the type of bullet. A typical hollow nose ballistic tipped Varmint type bullet from a 22 centrefire probably most of its lead into a fox as there is minimal exit wound.

A typical cup and core stalking bullet will retain about 60 to 70% and a tough bonded core bullet a bit more.

A monolithic copper bullet works very differently. Copper has a much high melting point than lead, so it won’t melt on impact. The petals open up and you then have a flat nose spinning device cutting through the body tissues, severing and impact major blood vessels and CNS before exiting. A monolithic bullet will retain 95% of its mass, and if does shed particles those are easily seen.

Microscopic lead particles are easily ingested when meat is eaten. And in many cases, given that meat is acidic, they will be partially dissolved into lead salts before they are eaten. In any case stomach acid will dissolve lead and thus it is then adsorbed into the body. There is plenty of good science that clearly demonstrates that lead in the body is not good for you or wild birds etc.

Birds are particularly effected because they don’t have teeth. Instead they have a crop which Is a large muscular organ at the base of the throat. They ingest grit and crop is used to grind up the food. Lead shot etc remains in the crop where it too is ground up. A lead pellet will pretty much stay in the crop until it is ground away.

At least with an animal a lead pellet will probably only remain in the body for several hours as it passes through the digestive tract and is then pooed out. But it’s surface will be digested.

In man, there is now plenty of evidence that demonstrates that lead levels as low 25 nmols per litre of blood is enough to be implicated in leukaemia and other nasty cancers.

The Food Standards Agency opening stance on game meat is that it contains lead and is thus potentially harmful. Have a read here. Lead-shot game

They state that this advice is based on a sample of consumers in Scotland carried out in 2012 who had eaten game consistently.

 

[Ratel]

The trouble with lead bullets is that on hitting an animal there is enough energy that the lead melts and then you have a column of molten sprayed into the caracass. Some of the lead will harden into lead fragments that we can find. Much will end as microscopic particles that are very easily ingested. Some of the bullet will remain in one piece and exit. How much? Well it very much depends on the type of bullet. A typical hollow nose ballistic tipped Varmint type bullet from a 22 centrefire probably most of its lead into a fox as there is minimal exit wound.

A typical cup and core stalking bullet will retain about 60 to 70% and a tough bonded core bullet a bit more.

A monolithic copper bullet works very differently. Copper has a much high melting point than lead, so it won’t melt on impact. The petals open up and you then have a flat nose spinning device cutting through the body tissues, severing and impact major blood vessels and CNS before exiting. A monolithic bullet will retain 95% of its mass, and if does shed particles those are easily seen.

Microscopic lead particles are easily ingested when meat is eaten. And in many cases, given that meat is acidic, they will be partially dissolved into lead salts before they are eaten. In any case stomach acid will dissolve lead and thus it is then adsorbed into the body. There is plenty of good science that clearly demonstrates that lead in the body is not good for you or wild birds etc.

Birds are particularly effected because they don’t have teeth. Instead they have a crop which Is a large muscular organ at the base of the throat. They ingest grit and crop is used to grind up the food. Lead shot etc remains in the crop where it too is ground up. A lead pellet will pretty much stay in the crop until it is ground away.

At least with an animal a lead pellet will probably only remain in the body for several hours as it passes through the digestive tract and is then pooed out. But it’s surface will be digested.

In man, there is now plenty of evidence that demonstrates that lead levels as low 25 nmols per litre of blood is enough to be implicated in leukaemia and other nasty cancers.

The Food Standards Agency opening stance on game meat is that it contains lead and is thus potentially harmful. Have a read here. Lead-shot game

They state that this advice is based on a sample of consumers in Scotland carried out in 2012 who had eaten game consistently.

Good grief you are scary!! Now I drank water from lead pipes for 60 years. I chewed my lead painted cot, I've eaten no end of game and venison shot with lead. We had a lead salting trough for our pork and bacon which we poured salt into, got to be some reaction there? We stuffed saltpetre onto hams to keep the flies off.
Could someone please tell me why my Grandmother and twist smoking Grandad lived well into their 90's, my sister is 90 and I'm in my 80th year. Surely we should have all been dead years ago, and by the way two mates from my old village are mid 80's and lived the same life.
Too much Woke in this world.

 

[Dalua]

The trouble with lead bullets is that on hitting an animal there is enough energy that the lead melts

I'm not disputing that lead fragments of all sizes result from lead bullets hitting quarry, and that these can end up pretty much anywhere in and around the beast.

Is it true, however, that the actually melts on impact? I had imagined that the lead simply came to bits because of the combination of impact, spin and its soft nature.

 

[Liveonce]

I'm not disputing that lead fragments of all sizes result from lead bullets hitting quarry, and that these can end up pretty much anywhere in and around the beast.

Is it true, however, that the actually melts on impact? I had imagined that the lead simply came to bits because of the combination of impact, spin and its soft nature.

i too find the lead melting on impact very questionable, to have sufficient retained energy and time to raise the lead to melting point temperature due to impact, friction? Is very questionable if it could do so why is it not happing in ballistic gel? Then you have the heat transfer, loss, to the surrounding copper jacket and target material, blood, meat, etc.

 

[Heym SR20]

Good grief you are scary!! Now I drank water from lead pipes for 60 years. I chewed my lead painted cot, I've eaten no end of game and venison shot with lead. We had a lead salting trough for our pork and bacon which we poured salt into, got to be some reaction there? We stuffed saltpetre onto hams to keep the flies off.
Could someone please tell me why my Grandmother and twist smoking Grandad lived well into their 90's, my sister is 90 and I'm in my 80th year. Surely we should have all been dead years ago, and by the way two mates from my old village are mid 80's and lived the same life.
Too much Woke in this world.

Yes and my grandmother lived well into her 90’s, but for he last 30 years was completely pickled and smoked and was utterly horrible person - her two brothers both died of leukaemia, one in his 50’s and one in his 70’s. My other grandparents - one died in her 40’s, one in his late 50’s and one in his 60’s.

We no longer have lead paint, use lead salts for curing pork, don’t have lead in petrol, use abestos or have advertising to promote cigarettes as a cure for chest conditions.

Life expectancy in previous generations was late 50’s / early 60’s for many. Three Score Years and Ten was a good result.

Now perfectly normal to live into our 80’s but things like dementia etc are absolutely on the rise. A function of many living into old age, but there is a very big difference between being a fit healthy 80 year old or being a cabbage.

As far as I am concerned anybody is completely free to put whatever toxins they like into their body. But given the way UK health services work (or don’t work), everybody else is expected to pick up the bill.

And in this day and age, you cannot put food into the market place with known toxins contained therein. Its feck to do with being Woke, but everything to do with common sense.

 

[Heym SR20]

I'm not disputing that lead fragments of all sizes result from lead bullets hitting quarry, and that these can end up pretty much anywhere in and around the beast.

Is it true, however, that the actually melts on impact? I had imagined that the lead simply came to bits because of the combination of impact, spin and its soft nature.

Look at lead fragments or splatter on a target. Are they sharp or nicely rounded. Look at slow motion pictures and you see droplets rather than shards. Look at a steel target where a lead bullet has gone through - the edges look molten, rather than sharp.

If you are good at physics you could also calculate temp rise on impact within the bullet - 1500 joules of kinetic energy being transferred by an object weighing a few grams. An awful lot goes to heat!

 

[Dalua]

Come on, chaps - when has anyone ever used lead salts for curing pork?

 

[Liveonce]

And in this day and age, you cannot put food into the market place with known toxins contained therein. Its feck to do with being Woke, but everything to do with common sense.

understand what you saying however lead is in other foods, hence food is put into the market place with known toxins contained therein. It’s just how much which is the issue as their is no safe level for lead been set.

ten seconds on google

Lead was most commonly found in the following baby foods types:

• Fruit juices: 89% of grape juice samples contained detectable levels of lead, mixed fruit (67%), apple (55%), and pear (45%)
• Root vegetables: Sweet potatoes (86%) and carrots (43%)
• Cookies: Arrowroot cookies (64%) and teething biscuits (47%)

14 Jun 2017

 

[Dalua]

Look at lead fragments or splatter on a target. Are they sharp or nicely rounded. Look at slow motion pictures and you see droplets rather than shards. Look at a steel target where a lead bullet has gone through - the edges look molten, rather than sharp.

If you are good at physics you could also calculate temp rise on impact within the bullet - 1500 joules of kinetic energy being transferred by an object weighing a few grams. An awful lot goes to heat!

I'm not sure an impact on steel can be compared at all to a bullet going through a bit of bone and tissue?

 

[Liveonce]

Look at lead fragments or splatter on a target. Are they sharp or nicely rounded. Look at slow motion pictures and you see droplets rather than shards. Look at a steel target where a lead bullet has gone through - the edges look molten, rather than sharp.

If you are good at physics you could also calculate temp rise on impact within the bullet - 1500 joules of kinetic energy being transferred by an object weighing a few grams. An awful lot goes to heat!

but surly most of that 1500 joules of energy transfers to the target not the projectile after all that is the whole point of it, is it not.

 

[Heym SR20]

but surly most of that 1500 joules of energy transfers to the target not the projectile after all that is the whole point of it, is it not.

understand what you saying however lead is in other foods, hence food is put into the market place with known toxins contained therein. It’s just how much which is the issue as their is no safe level for lead been set.

ten seconds on google

Lead was most commonly found in the following baby foods types:

• Fruit juices: 89% of grape juice samples contained detectable levels of lead, mixed fruit (67%), apple (55%), and pear (45%)
• Root vegetables: Sweet potatoes (86%) and carrots (43%)
• Cookies: Arrowroot cookies (64%) and teething biscuits (47%)

14 Jun 2017

Quite, and the trouble is that safe is probably not safe. And even at very low levels it can cause all sorts of problems. The biggest issue is the body cannot get rid of it.

I have seen a scientific paper that shows that prehistoric man had a lead score of 1, most of modern man is at about 1,000, and we consider lead poisoning to be at 4,000. And by lead poisoning you are suffering acute lead poisoning.

Lead will be absorbed into plant materials from the soil. Have a line of 10 guns shooting 100, 30g cartridges on a phaesant drive. Thats 30 kg of lead deposited on the soil. Do that a few times a year over many years and thats a lot of lead. Yes the soil is turned over and mixed, but over time some of the lead will dissolve and become lead salts and thus available to plants. Plant a field of carrots, or grow a crop of wheat and it is in the plant material and thus detectable.

The fact that this has been going on for over a century is no reason for it to continue.

The trouble is that even with low levels of lead there are lots of long term issues.

Just found this paper from 2003 on renal failure, and using a chelating drug to remove lead considerably improves efficiency of the kidneys and liver.

Environmental lead exposure and progression of chronic renal diseases in patients without diabetes - PubMed

Low-level environmental lead exposure may accelerate progressive renal insufficiency in patients without diabetes who have chronic renal disease. Repeated chelation therapy may improve renal function and slow the progression of renal insufficiency.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov