TimWest308
Well-Known Member
.222 incredible round and shouldn’t have any problems with ammo
Lead ban
- Thread starter Moorsrabbiter
- Start date
Deermanagement
Well-Known Member
I picked up some news recently that says the EU is going to continue the use of lead for hunting? Wasn’t aware that they also intended ending its use, but the reason given, was for security, and the issues bullet manufacturers have with producing both lead and alternatives. Hence for security reasons they will be allowing the continued use of lead for hunting.
Interesting, the manufacturing technique for traditional lead cored bullets is by swaging, it’s very fast and ideal for mass production by contrast solid copper or brass bullets are turned on lathes, likely whats known as a sliding head lathe as they offer high precision for small components, but they will be much slower to manufacture each bullet than conventional swaging. Also requires far more copper to make solid projectiles.
Hence the tin cored bullets as they can i expect still be manufactured on the same swaging machines as used for lead core. However tin is very much more expensive than lead.
lots for the industry to think about and with the uncertainty of world at this time what you say about security most be a factor.
Like that of steel shot, which take a lot longer to manufacture than lead shot, demand could easily out pace supply if u.k. and EU all went non toxic for recreational shooting at the same time.
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Yep, same with controlling min E100 and projectile weight minimums, for example just how is the police in sweden going to police and check if a hunter is using a 100 or 110 grn (below the min in sweden for class 1 game, but legal in Denmark) non lead projectile or a 120 one (which is legal in Sweden) ?
I mean i'm not going to try and get around it, just for peace of mind, but i highly doubt many, barr perhaps one very very unlucky chap once in a bluemoon, is ever going to get caught and fined on those grounds.
Yes, i read the same. As i read those news it's still only a proposal, and not yet a decision made, and we're likely only talking a temporary suspension until those causes for the suspension have passed. But yes, it could seem that a EU wide ban on non lead rifle hunting ammo for big game might be paused.
Denmark has already put it into full practice though, so i doubt it will change much in my, or the other hunters based or hunting in Denmark cases, but yeah, it might keep hunting in other EU countries slightly easier for a while yet in that regard.
All of the alternatives to lead ammunition, despite copious propaganda from the usual "useful idiots" are significantly inferior and thus of no interest for military or security use.
Something for shooters to think about is that the items they use are only affordable because of mass production and military use. The more that people campaign to push shooters down the path of specialised products or "better" technology, the faster they ruin shooting for all. The good old days were better because all of the materials were produced in very, very, very much larger quantities for the military.
To an extent demand already outpaces supply. Most ammunition is still lead based because non-lead alternatives which are equivalent are unavailable. Nobody ises lead because they like it, they only use it because nothing else is as good.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
No no, I actually like lead. It's one of the most amazing elements ever in my book
I would think the logic for the big brand bullet manufacturers using tin as a replacement for lead as cores it is so they can continue to use the same swaging and jacket extrusion process. If they offer solid they may be subcontracting their manufacturing.
Lathe turned solid bullet production to equally manufacturing capacity of the swaging/extrusion process will require many expensive cnc sliding head lathes to be installed and operated. That needs floor space and skilled staff.
The solid copper and brass bullets about at the moment I would speculate are from niche small scale suppliers, possibly as a by product of an engineering business with a lathe seeing the opportunity to diversify or they have been subcontracted to manufacture them.
Lathe turned solid bullet production to equally manufacturing capacity of the swaging/extrusion process will require many expensive cnc sliding head lathes to be installed and operated. That needs floor space and skilled staff.
The solid copper and brass bullets about at the moment I would speculate are from niche small scale suppliers, possibly as a by product of an engineering business with a lathe seeing the opportunity to diversify or they have been subcontracted to manufacture them.
We have 4 cartridge makes who have the lions share of the market, a few distributors of bullets, will they comply with the law, yes.
Once the top of the supply chain is lead free, the lower tiers will have no option. If Fred has a store of lead and continues to use it he will be "evidence" for Packham and his followers to damage our sport.
Will Fred be prosecuted, he will probably post on SM and give the Police evidence to refuse to renew his licence.
Once the top of the supply chain is lead free, the lower tiers will have no option. If Fred has a store of lead and continues to use it he will be "evidence" for Packham and his followers to damage our sport.
Will Fred be prosecuted, he will probably post on SM and give the Police evidence to refuse to renew his licence.
I'm hoping now the EU have u turned on lead we will follow, the government have been handed an easy out. I would imagine there will be pressure from the manufacturers for them it use it......or pay more for the military stuff to subsidize the non lead?
They might comply with the law. More likely than not, they will go out of business. And then every smug prat who's supported this non-lead transition nonsense will look pretty silly.
The fact is that very clear signalling over 6 years and an obvious driver for 40 plus years has led to a situation where the best the cartridge manufacturers have been able to do is produce small quantities of non lead ammunition with zero production of steel or alternative shot. The top of the supply chain is not going to become lead free - it will just cease to exist, apparently because the real experts in this matter know this is not viable.
Meanwhile far too much prominence in this debate is given to fantasists who insist on ideas which are clearly scientifically impossible - that technology will result in new materials for projectiles which will be equivalent or better than lead, that useable plastics which rot in the real world will be developed etc.
Packham et al don't use evidence. They rely on innuendo, the creation of misleading propaganda, outright lies and the stupidity among our ranks which grants them far.more credence than they deserve.
Fred faces uncertainty and a theoretical risk of being prosecuted by a police force which is almost entirely non-existent locally. Adam, who enthusiastically subscribes to the non-lead delusion, faces not shooting at all. His non-lead ammunition won't be produced in sufficient quantity. It will, in any event, still be toxic because they all ignored that the inert lead bullet is less toxic than the lead-based primer residues.
A 30-06 home loaded beats a factory wm in my opinion
I don’t think Packham, will go away just because we all stop using lead.
He will continue his crusade against shooting.
I do hope, now we have sovereignty, that should the EU not implement a lead ban for killing wildlife, we can go our own way and still ban it (with an exemption for humane dispatch)
gonzo
Well-Known Member
If they do decided against lead bullet ban, it will only be to save themselves the effort. Our interests and common sense having little bearing on it.
But it would likely only be a postponement.
They will just try the sect2/sect1 thing again in a couple of years.
You should all get BASC and BDS and NGO to campaign to drop the minimum calibre for Roe to 224 like Scotland as a result of the imposed legislation
They did it for .243 in Scotland
Whats the difference?
They did it for .243 in Scotland
Whats the difference?
looks like the beginning of the end.
www.countryside-alliance.org
Lead shot banned from 1 April 2029
The sale and use of lead shot for live quarry and clay shooting will be banned from 1 April 2029, after a three-year transition, starting in a month’s time.
www.countryside-alliance.org
Scipio
Well-Known Member
Hello mate
well, as i read the bulletin, the EU is only considering pausing a lead ban on all larger cal hunting ammo due to the current need to keep lead ammo manufactoring capacity high for military purposes. If/when that need goes significantly down again, i would expect the EU ban to get reactivated. But Denmark, an eu member, is already lead free for all hunting ammo, so at least for us it was possible doing it on our own accord.
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