Lead update.

[Smellydog]

hence the 1700fps restriction.

There is no velocity restrictions in England and Wales.

 

[moeggesit]

There is no velocity restrictions in England and Wales.

That’s interesting, it’s a very long time since I’ve checked the legislation for calibre requirements but always under the impression that there’s a minimum velocity in England a Wales as well.

Did that change when 22 CF was introduced for small deer or has it always been the case?

The energy limit is also challenging for BP unless you use a very heavy bullet, at least it’s achievable.

Thanks

 

[Utectok]

Most established bonafide clay grounds will be a small area and have tonnes of lead shot already over the ground, it will not suddenly vanish, mind you it’s hard to find even if looking for it. Then you take a local ground it has the clay shooting and air rifle and .22lr rifle range depositing lead over the same ground. The lead shot must stop but not the rifle lead. How is that even logical?

Bottom line is HSE could not allow the continued use of lead shot for target shooting as then it would continue to be used for live quarry.

What was really needed to drive the switching to non toxic was a cartridge with a proper biodegradable wad using steel shot at a price point lower than a comparable lead shot cartridge.
That is in practice cannot be achieved as only the expensive cardboard type wads can be considered a substitute for the traditional fibre wad. Apparently a lot of game shoots have banned current “plastic” biodegradable wads as they are not degradable in the environment.

That’s the biggest challenge for the industry, as fibre wad clay grounds will otherwise close. Then also a risk that single use plastic will go on to replace lead, polluting the environment as that will likely be the cheapest choice.

I believe the idea is that clay grounds with lead shot have earth moved and lead extracted from time to time. This is actually profitable once the lead density gets enough.
Secondly the old eco wads were very slow to biodegrade via sun light the new ones are starch and dissolve over night in a cup of water I’ve done it.
Not trying to make a point just some observations

 

[palmer_mike]

The energy limit is also challenging for BP unless you use a very heavy bullet, at least it’s achievable.

That is true!
I use 480gr conical lead bullet in my .50 flintlock rifle.
The pedersoli rifle i use has a fast twist barrel specifically designed to stabilise this bullet.
In a flintlock this was the only solution I could find to exceed the limits of the energy legislation in the U.K.

 

[Namman]

I’m struggling in reality to get any of mine over 1250fps, you’re doing well to push them at 1700fps Flintlock loses even more pressure than others so it must be one heck of a load.

They are perfectly suitable for any deer and large game, the trouble is that the powers that be have no clue about balistics, hence the 1700fps restriction. I have used both Snider and muzzle loader abroad and it’s challenging.

I did hear a rumour that original 303 BP were designed to reach 1800fps but not aware of anyone able to replicate the ballistics without modern powder. Other BP calibres then to be slower.

I think you are confusing muzzle energy and velocity.

 

[stubear]

And I for one will never forgive them for going down this path, can’t see them now turning back & fighting the proposals.
It was probably a well intentioned thought from a singular person which got pushed through & nobody had the time or gonads to say ‘hang on a sec, can we just think about this for a sccond’

I think it was all driven by money - at the time I remember there were a few big estates doing massive bag days, 2500 birds and so on.

The little local mom and pop game dealers weren’t going to be able to take 8000 birds a week so these estates needed another alternative. I remember one was filmed burying the birds in a pit and rightly castigated for doing so.

These estates then approached the like of John Lewis and M&S touting a line of locally sourced wild game which would appeal to the Barbour wearing urbanites who frequent such establishments. These shops said “ok but you have to shoot it with non toxic” because they knew the second the likes of fatty, batty and ****ty saw there was lead shot game on the shelves they’d be printing it all over the guardian and that would be the end of it.

All of a sudden the shooting orgs dropped their previously united front that there is no evidence and no need for a lead ban and started pushing the voluntary five year transition. Needless to say once the voluntary transition was being touted from within it wasn’t going to take some chinless greysuit in gubment long to make it law and here we are.

And the big bag shoots are still running, and Waitrose are selling partridge.

Or maybe I’m just a cynic

 

[stubear]

IIRC Norway went back to lead for welfare issues, must be some science there that can be used

They did - banned lead in 2005 and removed the ban in 2015 after a decade of campaigns by the shooting community.

 

[Smellydog]

I think it was all driven by money - at the time I remember there were a few big estates doing massive bag days, 2500 birds and so on.

The little local mom and pop game dealers weren’t going to be able to take 8000 birds a week so these estates needed another alternative. I remember one was filmed burying the birds in a pit and rightly castigated for doing so.

These estates then approached the like of John Lewis and M&S touting a line of locally sourced wild game which would appeal to the Barbour wearing urbanites who frequent such establishments. These shops said “ok but you have to shoot it with non toxic” because they knew the second the likes of fatty, batty and ****ty saw there was lead shot game on the shelves they’d be printing it all over the guardian and that would be the end of it.

All of a sudden the shooting orgs dropped their previously united front that there is no evidence and no need for a lead ban and started pushing the voluntary five year transition. Needless to say once the voluntary transition was being touted from within it wasn’t going to take some chinless greysuit in gubment long to make it law and here we are.

And the big bag shoots are still running, and Waitrose are selling partridge.

Or maybe I’m just a cynic

That's exactly what I mean by the likes of basic protecting the so called traditional shooting pheasant format in the UK.

The problem is not lead, the problem is greed and gluttony!

 

[Greenmist]

They did - banned lead in 2005 and removed the ban in 2015 after a decade of campaigns by the shooting community.

Well thats us f'=ked

 

[timbrayford]

People are absolute whoppers. I'm target shooting, eld's work absolutely sound for deer
Hopefully someone develops a backbone and tells them to jog on. Marksmanship skills are going to massively reduce because people can't afford to be going on range days with their mates sending 60+ rounds down range. There's going to be more deer running around the countryside injured because of lack of marksmanship and that's without half of the shoddy lead free ammo being sent through them

I hope that the HSE will take full responsibility for the animal welfare implications , damage to firearms and injuries caused by the ill advised use of inappropriate steel shot!

 

[moeggesit]

That is true!
I use 480gr conical lead bullet in my .50 flintlock rifle.
The pedersoli rifle i use has a fast twist barrel specifically designed to stabilise this bullet.
In a flintlock this was the only solution I could find to exceed the limits of the energy legislation in the U.K.

I think that’s just about enough

Well done to you with the flintlock, I’ve never been able to gain enough confidence to consider it. Even with the caplock it’s hard enough.

 

[Liveonce]

I believe the idea is that clay grounds with lead shot have earth moved and lead extracted from time to time. This is actually profitable once the lead density gets enough.
Secondly the old eco wads were very slow to biodegrade via sun light the new ones are starch and dissolve over night in a cup of water I’ve done it.
Not trying to make a point just some observations

indeed recovering the spent lead shot is an option for some grounds especially trap layouts, not so easy for english sporting shot in woods for example. But we are not being given that opportunity as a risk management tool to keep lead shot for clay shooting. The ban on lead shot is a total ban.

Indeed regarding wads the choice is increasing and some are better than others at disappearing to the eye but just because they disappear does not mean they are not harmful to the environment. But hopefully more choice will come in the next five years. What we as consumers need is an industry standard the wads must meet for typically how long they take to disappear in the U.K. field or wood environment so we know what we are buying. Not difficult to google the issue and find many are saying some types are looking like just fired after a very long time in a test situation.
Even the manufacturer, Hull states they are not where they want to be with their hydrowads but need the wads to protect the barrel and deliver on the ballistics so it’s currently a compromise.
The intrinsic strength and long term shelf life of water soluble wads, some made of PVA, do not fill me with confidence.
Then some are happy to use single use wads, TPS wads in .410 and 28gauge to use with steel shot but then we are littering the environment for what the next 500 years with plastic, simple fact is there is nothing in the environment that eats plastic.

 

[Utectok]

indeed recovering the spent lead shot is an option for some grounds especially trap layouts, not so easy for english sporting shot in woods for example. But we are not being given that opportunity as a risk management tool to keep lead shot for clay shooting. The ban on lead shot is a total ban.

Indeed regarding wads the choice is increasing and some are better than others at disappearing to the eye but just because they disappear does not mean they are not harmful to the environment. But hopefully more choice will come in the next five years. What we as consumers need is an industry standard the wads must meet for typically how long they take to disappear in the U.K. field or wood environment so we know what we are buying. Not difficult to google the issue and find many are saying some types are looking like just fired after a very long time in a test situation.
Even the manufacturer, Hull states they are not where they want to be with their hydrowads but need the wads to protect the barrel and deliver on the ballistics so it’s currently a compromise.
The intrinsic strength and long term shelf life of water soluble wads, some made of PVA, do not fill me with confidence.
Then some are happy to use single use wads, TPS wads in .410 and 28gauge to use with steel shot but then we are littering the environment for what the next 500 years with plastic, simple fact is there is nothing in the environment that eats plastic.

“BIO-WAD'S GREEN CREDENTIALS

Gamebore's Bio-Wad material is water soluble and fully biodegradable, conforming to the CEN 13432 European standard for compostability. This standard covers:

Ecotoxicity (does not impede plant growth)
Heavy metal content (does not contain heavy metals above the permitted level)
Biodegradability ISO 14851 (conducted in an aqueous environment)
Disintegration - Compost (breaks down passing through a 2mm sieve after 12 weeks composting)”

 

[enfieldspares]

The intrinsic strength and long term shelf life of water soluble wads, some made of PVA, do not fill me with confidence.

This.

 

[Sinistral]

This is a very recent overview of the issues from the US perspective.

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wsb.1449

 

[timbrayford]

Will have to see if I can find it but not that long ago there was an announcement that the Aussies have stopped their proposed ban on use of lead - there must be some science behind that decision so surely it can be applied just as much here as it can there? @Conor O'Gorman - is BASC aware of this & if so what are they doing about it? (Yes I’m a paid up BASC member & happy to provide details by PM as I’d like you to represent my interests in this respect please.)

Don't forget get that wild justices chum and anti lead shot campaigner John Swift is both the former CEO and honorary life member of BASC, perhaps they'll make Packham an honory life member too?

 

[moeggesit]

That is true!
I use 480gr conical lead bullet in my .50 flintlock rifle.
The pedersoli rifle i use has a fast twist barrel specifically designed to stabilise this bullet.
In a flintlock this was the only solution I could find to exceed the limits of the energy legislation in the U.K.

I think that’s just about enough

Well done to you with the flintlock, I’ve never been able to gain enough confidence to consider it. Even with the caplock it’s hard enough.

That is true!
I use 480gr conical lead bullet in my .50 flintlock rifle.
The pedersoli rifle i use has a fast twist barrel specifically designed to stabilise this bullet.
In a flintlock this was the only solution I could find to exceed the limits of the energy legislation in the U.K.

CUTTING EDGE BULLETS .45X.50 CALIBER 250GR COPPER HOLLOW POINT SABOT 12/BOX

.45 caliber bullets in a .50 caliber sabot, crafted from solid copper for exceptional accuracy in in-line muzzleloaders, functioning down to 1300fps.

www.brownells.co.uk

You may need to look at these? I’ve wondered whether there’s any use for them since I’ve first seen them in the 90’s?

 

[RTreble]

The market is going to be saturated with .243's with a slow twist rate that won't stabilize alternatives.
the .22 CF market will explode as vermin shooters down size calibre. A number of gunsmiths will probably do ok as we re-barrel to an alternative caliber or twist rate
And then at some point they will realize that the 22CF is a legal caliber for Scottish roe and small English species. Then the minimum caliber law will change.

Its coming in the next few years.

 

[Nickb]

The market is going to be saturated with .243's with a slow twist rate that won't stabilize alternatives.
the .22 CF market will explode as vermin shooters down size calibre. A number of gunsmiths will probably do ok as we re-barrel to an alternative caliber or twist rate
And then at some point they will realize that the 22CF is a legal caliber for Scottish roe and small English species. Then the minimum caliber law will change.

Its coming in the next few years.

Yep roe in England need to mirror the law in Scotland..22 CF

 

[Pellet Pinger]

The market is going to be saturated with .243's with a slow twist rate that won't stabilize alternatives.
the .22 CF market will explode as vermin shooters down size calibre. A number of gunsmiths will probably do ok as we re-barrel to an alternative caliber or twist rate
And then at some point they will realize that the 22CF is a legal caliber for Scottish roe and small English species. Then the minimum caliber law will change.

Its coming in the next few years.

Yep and Roe will continue to be shot with lead as its legal