Lead update.

[jall55]

I don't know anyone in denial of the toxicity of lead.
Lead, like many other naturally occurring elements can be converted into very toxic substances.
Shooters have enjoyed it in a relatively safe format for centuries but now it's a convenient way to beat us with and in a vein attempt some of us think compromise will appease.
Sincere good luck with that one.
What I do know is that the toxicity of lead from firearms pales into insignificance compared to agricultural chemicals and plastic pollution.
I think more are in denial of just those two things out of a huge list of other stuff.

Lead is a natural element. Made when the earth was.
Plastic is man made and he is thick.
Agrichem is man made and he is thick.

Interestingly SD was on a farm the other day that had "cake" spread from the water cleaning process - the amount of plastic - and indeed metal / batteries was heartbreaking

 

[jall55]

Disproportionate nationwide compared to other pollutants.
If there are localised concentration of lead shot like say on a large commercial shoot then I'd say it's the commerce that's the real issue.

On my grounds I have wild stock that breads every year by themselves despite any lead left by me. Pretty much how gamekeeping was done 50 plus years ago....despite the lead shot.

We will never agree on this mucker, you have a vested interest in protecting the big shoots. I don't!

Again when you think about it - Salisbury Plain - A wildlife haven "probably" has its fair share of lead contamination ?

 

[countrryboy]

Indeed, and the problem with lead is when lead is distributed into small grit sized pellets and available in the ground for birds of various species to mistake as grit and eat, then that lead shot gets eroded in the gizzard and is metabolised into toxic lead salts that are absorbed into blood and later deposited in the kidneys, liver, bones etc. with resulting ill effects. Whether the impact of this on individual birds or their population justifies restrictions relative to other toxic substances impacting those same birds or populations is where the debate lies now - and the days of denying the science as a defence strategy are long over as regards lead shot for live quarry shooting.

I done my dissertation on lead shot in shooting ponds over 30 years ago, that is a massive over simplifacation and not really true in a lot of situations.
Was far more an issue for wildfowl and often were mistaking it as food as in many cases shot size was similar to the size of there food so were actively swallowing it as they dabbled.
Very few birds on land will be actively ingesting lead to the same extent.

I spent my summer digging silt and processing it on some very old well shot duck ponds.
Never found a single pellet.
And 1 of the ponds they used to shoot 200 duck on 1 drive, so fairly well shot.
And a lot of the shot would land inaround the pond area.

Believe wot u want but basc have well and truely thrown us under the bus, again.
Will never ever get another penny off me.

 

[Deermanagement]

Talking to someone from BASC yesterday and their understanding is .22 hornet and above will need to be non-lead. Only skipped through sone of the posts but seem many talking about .22 CF remaining unrestricted?

The other point mentioned was if following any ban, anyone caught with lead bullets would be in possession of illegal ammo?

This may or may not be correct but it was their understanding of documents conveyed internally by BASC

 

[jall55]

Talking to someone from BASC yesterday and their understanding is .22 hornet and above will need to be non-lead. Only skipped through sone of the posts but seem many talking about .22 CF remaining unrestricted?

The other point mentioned was if following any ban, anyone caught with lead bullets would be in possession of illegal ammo?

This may or may not be correct but it was their understanding of documents conveyed internally by BASC

Wrong if you read the recommendations

 

[Smellydog]

We could also perhaps agree that if any of your wild stock is unfortunate enough to eat any of your lead shot as grit they will suffer some sub-lethal or lethal toxic effects?

Sorry no, I've never seen any evidence and I don't go off "if". I can't organise or arrange my life around an if. I'd probably end up doing nothing....hey, wait...!

 

[Smellydog]

The other point mentioned was if following any ban, anyone caught with lead bullets would be in possession of illegal ammo?

So what's going to happen is tons of ammunition being stashed illegally and the potential for a black market to develop.
Progress FFS. Only in Britain...

 

[stubear]

I am of the understanding the NRA UK did show the HSE how lead was harvested from the rifle butts on a regular basis which is why ranges complying with NRA range construction guidance can continue to use lead ammo. My concern also centres on clay shooting businesses and the impact new regs will have on them.

This is my concern - if these grounds can’t use plastic wads then it’s going to be steel and eco wads only, and that’s going to increase anmo costs by 50%. And that’s going to put a lot of people off and reduce numbers, and let’s face it that’s what they want.

 

[enfieldspares]

But what did you do ?

I let it be known that, said just the once in reply, I had brought my own, bismuth, as I am sure as had everyone else.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

The HSE has proposed no restriction “at this time” on the placing on the market or use of lead bullets for live quarry shooting. The HSE has been unable to sufficiently quantify the benefits of restricting this use and has not been able to explicitly demonstrate the proportionality of a restriction. Therefore, no restriction should be made or proposed.

Funny though how they want to ban pretty much every deer cartridge now though. As previously mentioned, if their concern is birds eating lead shot, and there's evidence this is causing problems, ban lead for game shooting.

Where's the evidence that this is having an impact on everything else and why is lead rifle ammo now under the microscope?
As far as I'm aware, there isn't any evidence. There's also countries moving from lead free and going back to lead bullets....

 

[finnbear270]

Interestingly SD was on a farm the other day that had "cake" spread from the water cleaning process - the amount of plastic - and indeed metal / batteries was heartbreaking

I can verify this, I did a couple of years with Welsh Water Authority.

 

[Smellydog]

I can verify this, I did a couple of years with Welsh Water Authority.

I've mentioned it before but also lots of farms have trialed recycled paper for bedding and then spread on the land only to find it contains tons of tiny pieces of plastic. Completely under the radar! That's ok they've always got shooting to attack and score points with in front of the dumb electorate.

 

[finnbear270]

I've mentioned it before but also lots of farms have trialed recycled paper for bedding and then spread on the land only to find it contains tons of tiny pieces of plastic. Completely under the radar! That's ok they've always got shooting to attack and score points with in front of the dumb electorate.

Also did this stuff, It's paper waste blue / gray in appearance, containing china clay mainly, but as Smelly says all sorts of bits & pieces in it.

 

[Smellydog]

Also did this stuff, It's paper waste blue / gray in appearance, containing china clay mainly, but as Smelly says all sorts of bits & pieces in it.

Yes I've seen that stuff, that's not as bad. The paper I'm referring to was chopped up paper waste and dry.
Ever since it's been spread, 2yrs ago, I've struggled to see wild poults!
I love scientists, most of them talk out of their arses, they should do a circus act.

 

[finnbear270]

Recycled "Garden" or "Green" waste from council kerbside collections also suffer from contamination, that's the brown looking woody stuff tipped on farmland.

 

[Liveonce]

So what's going to happen is tons of ammunition being stashed illegally and the potential for a black market to develop.
Progress FFS. Only in Britain...

If, when, the use of lead in ammunition is banned and hence illegal to use if caught using it, then at the very least they will revoke your SGC, FAC licences. So there will be no black market other than for criminals.

 

[finnbear270]

Indeed. Lots of good sites for mute swans to nest along the canal and river Dee in Chester. There is a sign at the Groves explaining the impact of lead shot used for fishing on the swan population. If you believe that swans do not suffer lead poisoning from eating lead shot as grit then the following may be of interest:

Lead Poisoning in Swans - The Swan Sanctuary

Numbers of swans treated for lead poisoning Currently out of a yearly throughput of 3000 Mute swans we treat about 6 per month (around 72 per year) for

www.theswansanctuary.org.uk

I should have added that most of the output from the lead works was loaded into barges for transportation, right where the Swans make their nests.

 

[Smellydog]

If, when, the use of lead in ammunition is banned and hence illegal to use if caught using it, then at the very least they will revoke your SGC, FAC licences. So there will be no black market other than for criminals.

Correct and when all the little hunters are gone some will turn to illegal hunting.

I don't get how most people believe that somehow laws prevent stuff. They don't, they only create more crimes and hence forth more criminals.
How long has it been illegal to murder now?
How long has it been illegal to use drugs and sell them?
The list is endless.
Please don't believe for a second a lead ammunition ban will result in it not being used, what ever the risks may be!
For a certainty any bank robber or the like won't be complying to a lead ban for his chosen firearm to threaten human life.

Britain is a nation of ostrich, the majority likes to stick it's head in a bucket of sand exposing their arse for yet another dam good spanking!

 

[hendrix's rifle]

If, when, the use of lead in ammunition is banned and hence illegal to use if caught using it, then at the very least they will revoke your SGC, FAC licences. So there will be no black market other than for criminals.

Illegal for hunting purposes, not target so therefore not illegal to own... Unless you specifically mean shotgun cartridges and not just ammunition. And there again are exceptions for that. Just say you're an olympic clay shooter or training for it

 

[sauer]

More laws that mean sh1t with no one to police it