Lead update.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Did they ask the members thoughts at that juncture Conor ?

There have been almost five years of feedback and discussions between members and shooting organisations on the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. As for BASC, policy decisions are made by its Council and Council members are elected by the membership. Members can also engage in AGMs - of which there have been five since the 2020 - and one question on the voluntary transition in 2020 and none since then that I can recall. See: AGM

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Firstly, what happens in Japan or anywhere else is not justifiable as evidence to ban lead in the UK, gun ownership, environment, bird population/concentration etc are completely different and if you are happy to use studies from other countries to suit your agenda then you really are selling UK shooting down the river.
Regarding your response to finnbear270 i think you are guilty of putting words in his mouth, at no point did he mention birds eating lead, just an observation that theres always been a population there. You dont seem to accept thats possible without them eating lead, a foregone conclusion that if theres a high concentration of shot the birds must eat it.
I stand by my original comment, what chance do we have if the so called voice of our sport is going to continuously copy and paste links to lead poisoning from here, there and everywhere and a bunch of volunteers with zero scientific credibility. Its as if you are doing the antis job for them and completely ignoring the concerns of the people you are supposed to be representing.

Swans suffer lead poisoning when they eat lead shot. It's well evidenced. Here is some British research on lead poisoning in swans caused by lead shot.

Widespread exposure to lead affects the body condition of free-living whooper swans Cygnus cygnus wintering in Britain

Lead poisoning, through the ingestion of spent lead gunshot, is an established cause of morbidity and mortality in waterbirds globally, but the thresh…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Which was a complete reversal of BASC's prior, correct position that the available evidence did not merit a ban on lead. There is no solid evidence of British birds outside wetlands being poisoned by mistaking lead for grit. No such paper has been presented throughout this debate to the best of my knowledge and you have failed to produce one either. All the antis do is obfuscate, and pretend it doesnt matter whether birds really are or arent being poisoned.. What you should be doing is helping shooters, not joining in with antis' misleading propaganda. It's madness for a shooting organisation to ignore the state of the evidence and then campaign against its own membership and its own previpus position.
In 2016, it was correct not to prevent the ise of lead. Three years later, there was no substantial new evidence to justify the U turn. This is a BASC PR stunt gone spectacularly wrong.

This is not consistent with your lately adopted pose of pretending that BASC has consistently opposed a lead ban. It hasn't, and you've betrayed the interests of your members for no compensatory advantage whatsoever.

BASC.

Thanks, yet the fact is that there is no lead ban so I think your criticism is rather unfair. BASC has challenged the HSE since 2021 on its review into the outdoor recreational use of lead ammunition in England, Wales and Scotland. The latest BASC update on that review and next steps is here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.

basc.org.uk

 

[Liveonce]

@Conor O'Gorman are BASC challenging the HSE on keeping lead shot for clay shooting? If not why not?

 

[Smellydog]

There have been almost five years of feedback and discussions between members and shooting organisations on the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. As for BASC, policy decisions are made by its Council and Council members are elected by the membership. Members can also engage in AGMs - of which there have been five since the 2020 - and one question on the voluntary transition in 2020 and none since then that I can recall. See: AGM

I wonder how many members there would be if there was no carrot, the insurance.

Maybe a conclusion can be drawn in that nobody got involved at the AGM because the real reason they are members is for the carrot, insurance.

It could then be presumed BASC does not have a mandate to speak for shooting.

It could be easily assumed that BASC has in a round about way mislead it's members with a carrot to safeguard their own interests.
To safeguard the gluttony of those at the top of the ladder, the tradition.

The only trouble is that traditional scenery is finished. Gone are the days of privacy.
It's bag limits not lead bans that is needed.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Conor O'Gorman are BASC challenging the HSE on keeping lead shot for clay shooting? If not why not?

BASC asserted that target shooting with shotguns could continue on registered ranges where they had the correct risk management measures in place, however, the HSE have not agreed, in their recommendations report to Defra and the Welsh and Scottish administrations. It's now in the political arena and what happens next is unclear, as its a new post-Brexit process, and legislative proposals may arise for England, or Wales, or Scotland; or all three; or some or no legislative proposals at all.

 

[stubear]

I wonder how many members there would be if there was no carrot, the insurance.

Maybe a conclusion can be drawn in that nobody got involved at the AGM because the real reason they are members is for the carrot, insurance.

It could then be presumed BASC does not have a mandate to speak for shooting.

It could be easily assumed that BASC has in a round about way mislead it's members with a carrot to safeguard their own interests.
To safeguard the gluttony of those at the top of the ladder, the tradition.

The only trouble is that traditional scenery is finished. Gone are the days of privacy.
It's bag limits not lead bans that is needed.

Agree about the bag limits 100% - if every shoot said “you have to take home what you shoot” then this whole debate would be null and void because the only lead going into food would be going into the guns food.

That would have been a far more sensible and moderate approach IMO.

But then you wouldn’t be able to charge five grand a peg for a 2000 bird day and make £250k a week….

 

[stubear]

BASC asserted that target shooting with shotguns could continue on registered ranges where they had the correct risk management measures in place, however, the HSE have not agreed, in their recommendations report to Defra and the Welsh and Scottish administrations. It's now in the political arena and what happens next is unclear, as its a new post-Brexit process, and legislative proposals may arise for England, or Wales, or Scotland; or all three; or some or no legislative proposals at all.

Let’s be honest though - this government has nailed its colours clearly to the “anti shooting, anti countryside” mast - we’ve got IHT tax changes, £400 licence costs, plus this ban and that’s all within 6 months.

What do you realistically think the odds are of them going “nah we think the current status quo is fine” and not putting forward more legislation? They’re going to agree wholeheartedly with 100% of the HSEs proposals and probably tack on a few of their own for good measure, safe in the knowledge they can power that through the house with zero challenge given their huge majority,

And once it’s law theres zero chance of it ever going back the other way. I know it did in Norway but that took a decade of campaigning and a much more pro shooting government and pro shooting population to get there - we simply don’t have that here. Heck we don’t even have alignment WITHIN the shooting community on how things should be - just look at posts like this.

 

[Kersnow]

Our sport is up against the wall and we should be uniting and no constantly sniping.

The fowling community has used non tox/steel shot for years without any real issues.

Maybe the change to steel etc. will be the end of stupid high bird shoots and that will be a good thing.

A pal of mine recently shot at a well known Northumberland high bird shoot where the bag was 306 birds for just under 3000 36 or 40g loads. God knows how many birds would be pricked and not picked Not sporting or ethically or morally justifiable.

 

[Smellydog]

Maybe the change to steel etc. will be the end of stupid high bird shoots and that will be a good thing.

Aye, it's just a shame us on the fringe, like muzzleloader users have been thrown under the bus!
410 guns scrapped.

 

[Kersnow]

Aye, it's just a shame us on the fringe, like muzzleloader users have been thrown under the bus!
410 guns scrapped.

Why not use bismuth??

 

[enfieldspares]

@Conor O'Gorman are BASC challenging the HSE on keeping lead shot for clay shooting? If not why not?

Maybe the CPSA, of which I am a member, should be doing that. I'd rather BASC asked why the New Zealand model isn't suitable for the UK?

Non-toxic shot regulations

Hunters are required to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl within 200 metres of water. 2021 saw a complete ban on the use of lead shot for all but 410 gauge, and that exemption ended at the end of the 2023 game bird hunting season. This ban will be strictly enforced on public, private...

www.fishandgame.org.nz

 

[Liveonce]

Maybe the CPSA, of which I am a member, should be doing that. I'd rather BASC asked why the New Zealand model isn't suitable for the UK?

Non-toxic shot regulations

Hunters are required to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl within 200 metres of water. 2021 saw a complete ban on the use of lead shot for all but 410 gauge, and that exemption ended at the end of the 2023 game bird hunting season. This ban will be strictly enforced on public, private...

www.fishandgame.org.nz

I think you have as much chance of getting the New Zealand model as I do of keeping lead shot for clay shooting

CPSA say on their website

In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential key change for our sport in the coming years

 

[Liveonce]

Let’s be honest though - this government has nailed its colours clearly to the “anti shooting, anti countryside” mast - we’ve got IHT tax changes, £400 licence costs, plus this ban and that’s all within 6 months.

The £400 is only speculation could be a lot more yet.

 

[enfieldspares]

I think you have as much chance of getting the New Zealand model as I do of keeping lead shot for clay shooting

Yes. Our dogs in this fight seem to be lacking any teeth!

 

[Cj1990]

Why not use bismuth??

Most people couldn’t afford bismuth. I use my .410 dispatching on the farm, eats round buildings etc. Not justifiable to be using bismuth.

 

[Ratel]

Yes. Our dogs in this fight seem to be lacking any teeth!

I'm afraid our dogs don't have any teeth. The last gubberment hardly recognised them and this one is so anti rural I'm afraid the dentures are being made at the usual excessive charge.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Most people couldn’t afford bismuth. I use my .410 dispatching on the farm, eats round buildings etc. Not justifiable to be using bismuth.

Alternatives to lead continue to be developed and come onto market worldwide. Federal do a .410 in steel in USA since 2019. Here is a review on pros and cons:

An Official Journal Of The NRA | Tested: Federal Upland Steel Loads

Prohibited from using lead shot for upland or small-game hunting? Sacrifice nothing with Federal’s new Upland Steel loads.

www.americanhunter.org

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I wonder how many members there would be if there was no carrot, the insurance.

Maybe a conclusion can be drawn in that nobody got involved at the AGM because the real reason they are members is for the carrot, insurance.

It could then be presumed BASC does not have a mandate to speak for shooting.

It could be easily assumed that BASC has in a round about way mislead it's members with a carrot to safeguard their own interests.
To safeguard the gluttony of those at the top of the ladder, the tradition.

The only trouble is that traditional scenery is finished. Gone are the days of privacy.
It's bag limits not lead bans that is needed.

I think you mentioned shooting a woodcock the other day. You might consider that the reason you could harvest that woodcock is because of research by GWCT and voluntary restraint measures encouraged by BASC and other shooting organisations and used to good effect in political lobbying in the face of calls to take woodcock off the quarry list.

A self-regulation success story for the shooting sector

A reversal in the fortunes of the enigmatic woodcock provides evidence that self-regulation in shooting can work, says Dr Cat McNicol.

basc.org.uk

I think you mentioned that you are not a member of any organisation yet you have benefitted from their efforts whilst using this forum to undermine those very organisations. You might reflect on that.

 

[terrier1]

Did they ask the members thoughts at that juncture Conor ?

No no they didn't because if they had we wouldn't be where we are now. And BASC would have a lot more members.