Lead update.

[stubear]

I must admit I really do not understand why shooting has been allowed to continue to spread a highly toxic substance all across our prime agricultural land and it ending up in our foodstuffs for so long.

It was removed from everyday use in things such paints, make up, ink, water pipes, petrol etc etc many, many decades ago.

But it doesn’t - lead from game is so far down the list of sources of lead in food I’m struggling to see why we think it’s a problem.




Now I’m not saying lead isn’t toxic or dangerous BUT it doesn’t look like lead from shooting is causing a problem.

Now potentially maybe some of the reason lead is so high in potatoes and cereal IS because of shooting - I don’t know. But neither does the HSE, but they should be looking to find out, and they shouldn’t be proposing a ban without evidence it’s needed clearly cited in their paper. That should be the absolute lowest minimum bar they should be meeting in my view.

Now if the HSE can go away and find some clear evidence AND CITE IT then fine, let’s discuss options for mitigation of the risk but as of right now we’ve got a paper recommending a ban and admitting they have no evidence to back it up.

That’s my issue here.

 

[BryanDC]

Don't worry about it. ATB.

I am not worried. But I still don't get what you mean.

The shooting community needs to stick together but there are just too many that are intolerant of others opinions and viewpoint. The world is not black and white, there are a million shades of grey.

I think unfortunately for you, at some stage in the not to distant future you will have to choose to accept a ban on lead ammunition or give up your sport.

I chose to accept the rules on lead shot that was in place here and last year the ban on lead rifle ammunition, because I wanted to continue my sport.

Knæk og bræk (good luck)

 

[Heym SR20]

But it doesn’t - lead from game is so far down the list of sources of lead in food I’m struggling to see why we think it’s a problem.


View attachment 399707

Now I’m not saying lead isn’t toxic or dangerous BUT it doesn’t look like lead from shooting is causing a problem.

Now potentially maybe some of the reason lead is so high in potatoes and cereal IS because of shooting - I don’t know. But neither does the HSE, but they should be looking to find out, and they shouldn’t be proposing a ban without evidence it’s needed clearly cited in their paper. That should be the absolute lowest minimum bar they should be meeting in my view.

Now if the HSE can go away and find some clear evidence AND CITE IT then fine, let’s discuss options for mitigation of the risk but as of right now we’ve got a paper recommending a ban and admitting they have no evidence to back it up.

That’s my issue here.

So ask yourself where does all the lead in cereals potatoes etc come from? Most of the lead deposits are in the western / northern upland non agricultural parts of the UK.

 

[countrryboy]

Having read the so far 28 pages of this "debate" and seeing it from the outside. I have a few comments. I should also say I don't have an axe to grind in either camp as I have used lead shot in the UK and steel shot in DK plus a recent change to non lead rifle ammunition here.

1. Why on earth do various contributers keep bringing up other things such as ; plastic, cats, lead pipes, etc. None of them have anything to do with lead ammunition. In each case they are another issue that has as much to with any proposed ban on lead ammunition as the price of cod.

2. Why are people still talking about rimfire ammunition? Is it not along with air rifle ammunition exempt from any proposed ban?

3. You all seem to blame the various shooting organisations, but many are not members and many of those that are members are only members for the insurance. It doesn't sound like any of you take an active part in your various organisations. Why not step up?

4. Numerous contributers post in veiled terms about breaking the law with self labelling of ammunition as suitable for live quarry, or self loading lead shot in cases labelled bismuth or steel. ARE YOU DAFT? This is an open forum where anyone can read your posts.

1 i know i mentioned lead water pipes, while nothing to do with shooting.
This is driven by the HSE out of concern for general publics health.
U had a charity like WWT investing its charity funds into studies of lead in game meat.
Various orgs/charities are pushing thos lead agenda as a means to get shooting banned.

2 ur right but these are only proposals.
If/when the legislation goes throu that exemption could be dropped all together or ammended even at a very late stage.
Scotland/holyrood were terrible for that esp when the green party had a big say.
So even when the proposal looks reasonble and workable u never know wot the final draft will look like.

3 ur right there is an awful lot of apathy in the uk.

4 Aye ur right folk are off their heads admitting this.
Or sone anti saves exchanges like that and brings them up at some consultation and they decide to be even more stringent or just ban shooting all together if were not going to obey the rules.
That may seem far fetched bht way tide is turning i cant see shooring lasting much more than 10- 15 yrs and quite a few folk i know rhink similar.

 

[BryanDC]

1 i know i mentioned lead water pipes, while nothing to do with shooting.
This is driven by the HSE out of concern for general publics health.
U had a charity like WWT investing its charity funds into studies of lead in game meat.
Various orgs/charities are pushing thos lead agenda as a means to get shooting banned.

2 ur right but these are only proposals.
If/when the legislation goes throu that exemption could be dropped all together or ammended even at a very late stage.
Scotland/holyrood were terrible for that esp when the green party had a big say.
So even when the proposal looks reasonble and workable u never know wot the final draft will look like.

3 ur right there is an awful lot of apathy in the uk.

4 Aye ur right folk are off their heads admitting this.
Or sone anti saves exchanges like that and brings them up at some consultation and they decide to be even more stringent or just ban shooting all together if were not going to obey the rules.
That may seem far fetched bht way tide is turning i cant see shooring lasting much more than 10- 15 yrs and quite a few folk i know rhink similar.

If there are any restrictions lets hope that you get to keep using lead for rimfires and airguns. The alternatives currently available for rimfire are not great. We luckily got to keep lead rimfire and air rifle ammo for at least the time being when our ban on lead in all centrefire ammunition came in last year.

 

[stubear]

So ask yourself where does all the lead in cereals potatoes etc come from? Most of the lead deposits are in the western / northern upland non agricultural parts of the UK.

I’m not saying you’re wrong and you might even be right. But the issue is still 1) you need proof, not supposition, and 2) you need to cite the proof in the HSE paper calling for a ban.

Right now we’ve neither of those things.

 

[jall55]

I must admit I really do not understand why shooting has been allowed to continue to spread a highly toxic substance all across our prime agricultural land and it ending up in our foodstuffs for so long.

It was removed from everyday use in things such paints, make up, ink, water pipes, petrol etc etc many, many decades ago.

I agree to an extent - but as SD states - compared to the stuff that farmers spread across the land in the name of growing food it does perhaps pale into insignificance

 

[finnbear270]

I agree to an extent - but as SD states - compared to the stuff that farmers spread across the land in the name of growing food it does perhaps pale into insignificance

What are the published / known levels of lead uptake in our vegetables, grazing grass etc?

 

[countrryboy]

So ask yourself where does all the lead in cereals potatoes etc come from? Most of the lead deposits are in the western / northern upland non agricultural parts of the UK.

Stubear sums it up well.

I know in my disseratation my control non shooting ponds had a higher lead in water than the shooting ponds.
So soil a geology plays a big part.

U'd think think all the money wwt spent on researching lead in game ( and cobsidering just how few folk eat game nowadys) ud think it would be right at the top of table.
I cant believe how far down it is.
Why HSE are even bothered just shows their is an agenda driving ir.
And to have absolutely no scietfic evidence at all.
It would be a relatively cheap/easy study to carry out both in the field or to recreate in a 'lab' type plot system

After seeing that table im even more upset basc has taken the stance it has.
Was nothing wrobg with the no science no change, while all the time strongly encouraging cartridge makers to work on alternatives.

Lead in its solid form really is fairly stable, or else they wouldnae have used it for water pipes for so long and still using it in many pkaces.
Most solids will be more likely to be disolved/absobed when ur actually pushing water over it.
And yet no big panic to repkace lead pipe, many folk might not even know wot water pipe theyve got.

Going back to stubears table i notice artificial meat and algae as food are both only a few places below game meat.

 

[Whitefront]

I am amazed at the number of scientists on here... Personally, I set store by what the GWCT says.

 

[Dunwaters]

You said you don't have an axe to grind....nothing left of the axe to grind!

Mate, you yourself are the most perfect example…
I hope to get out later and use up a few more lead 6’s…season ends at the end of the month and I will be going non lead as far as practicable for next season.

 

[Nickb]

I am amazed at the number of scientists on here... Personally, I set store by what the GWCT says.

Trust noone as they all have an agenda.

 

[Nickb]

Mate, you yourself are the most perfect example…
I hope to get out later and use up a few more lead 6’s…season ends at the end of the month and I will be going non lead as far as practicable for next season.

Hope it makes you feel better but I will be using lead for as long as possible.

 

[Dunwaters]

Hope it makes you feel better but I will be using lead for as long as possible.

It does, the smugness often keeps me in T shirt and shorts until lunchtime.

 

[sauer]

Trust noone as they all have an agenda.

So how do you make your own mind decisions up ?
Got to get your information that you base putting own decisions on from somewhere

Paul

 

[Nickb]

So how do you make your own mind decisions up ?
Got to get your information that you base putting own decisions on from somewhere

Paul

Make my own mind up

As you get older and wiser in life you learn to trust noone especially politicians, managers and work colleagues.

Look after No 1 and you won't go far wrong or get screwed

 

[sauer]

Yeah but you said trust no one .... to male an opinion you must get the Info to decide from somewhere / someone and act on some aspect of that Info ... yeah I get your making your own mind up but you must be accepting somebody's Info

Paul

 

[Morkai]

Yeah but you said trust no one .... to male an opinion you must get the Info to decide from somewhere / someone and act on some aspect of that Info ... yeah I get your making your own mind up but you must be accepting somebody's Info

Paul

The Daily Mail I think, going by some of the posts.

 

[Morkai]

Make my own mind up

As you get older and wiser in life you learn to trust noone especially politicians, managers and work colleagues.

Politicians, yes.

I've had some absolutely great managers, some have now left and I'm still friends with, same for colleagues. Some left 10yrs ago, we are still good friends.

Look after No 1 and you won't go far wrong or get screwed

All people are different with different intentions, not all of them are bad. Just surround yourself with good people.

 

[countrryboy]

I am amazed at the number of scientists on here... Personally, I set store by what the GWCT says.

1 problem u do have is even with science it has to be fair.
Even science can be easjly skewed or biased if the scientists ( or funders) have an agenda, sound a bit paranoid but with such an emotive subject as shooting i'd say uts true .
It is amazing how often science finds in favour of whos paying for the research.

I vaguely remember we had q lecture on 2 famous studies who both argued the exact oppisate off each other using the same independant data set.
And both were peer reviewed and published in scientfic journals.
So both valid with no flaws

1 argued forestry harvesting doesnae increase sediment in a river ( paid for by a forestry company) and the other argued it did increase sediment.
Just by cherry picking different measurments/parameters to suit them and the statistical analysis they done.