Lead update.

[Smellydog]

Mate, you yourself are the most perfect example…
I hope to get out later and use up a few more lead 6’s…season ends at the end of the month and I will be going non lead as far as practicable for next season.

Mate, over this subject I do have an axe to grind and make it abundantly clear.

I have never said I have no axe to grind over this subject and then started to err grind an axe.

I know how you think and feel on this subject.
However I feel and think it is non other than another attack on the shooting sports.

If however there are high concentrations of lead on large commercial shoots and it can be thus proven introduce bag limits or charge them for it. Maybe a choice of the two.

In the name of the environment and wildlife it's a croc. Far worse and far more of it is spread on land than lead.
Best wishes and enjoy them cartridges. Send the rest to me.

 

[Dunwaters]

Mate, over this subject I do have an axe to grind and make it abundantly clear.

I have never said I have no axe to grind over this subject and then started to err grind an axe.

I know how you think and feel on this subject.

I do, and I mostly agree

However I feel and think it is non other than another attack on the shooting sports.

Thats how it started in Europe, but the lead shot ban for duck hunting in the US was prompted by Federal research which found that lead was affecting duck numbers at population level, this back in the 60’s and 70’s. That research has never been repudiated, at least so far.

If however there are high concentrations of lead on large commercial shoots and it can be thus proven introduce bag limits or charge them for it. Maybe a choice of the two.

Large volume game shoots are a put and take affair with virtually zero carryover from year to year, figures for breeding success and chick survival aren’t kept because it doesn’t matter. However, there are studies dating back to the 30’s by the old Game conservancy that found a link between spent shot consumption and partridge chick mortality.

In the name of the environment and wildlife it's a croc. Far worse and far more of it is spread on land than lead.
Best wishes and enjoy them cartridges. Send the rest to me.

I don’t agree, we should all do whatever we can to clean the place up, and that includes you and me doing our bit and not slinging heavy metals unnecessarily and randomly into the environment. It all adds up.
Im down to half a slab of lead cartridges, mostly fibre 6’s, when the season is over they’re going clay shooting and I’ll restock, probably with bismuth, I don’t shoot enough volume for the cost to be a big deal nowadays.

 

[Nickb]

Just surround yourself with good people.

That is the hard part .

What do you class as good people?

They are all good people until they stab you in the back.

 

[Nickb]

Yeah but you said trust no one .... to male an opinion you must get the Info to decide from somewhere / someone and act on some aspect of that Info ... yeah I get your making your own mind up but you must be accepting somebody's Info

Paul

Still trust noone

 

[BryanDC]

I have never said I have no axe to grind over this subject and then started to err grind an axe.

When I asked you what you meant, why couldn't you just say that. Even though it seems a deliberate misunderstanding of what I said. Try giving a straight answer next time.

I very clearly said I don't have an axe to grind in either camp. Meaning - Support a ban on lead or oppose a ban on lead. It is up to you.

Now where I do have an big f***ing big axe to grind is with the idiotic morons that would jeopardise the sport of everyone else by proposing idiotic and potentially unlawful ideas about relabelling lead ammunition or reloading lead in other cases. I still have many shooting friends in the UK and still shoot there myself and want to continue.

I also have an axe to grind with the lazy, apathetic faction that complain and complain about what this organisation or that organisation is doing or not doing on their behalf, but make not the slightest effort to actually do something themselves. If you are a member of one or other organisation, try actually getting involved and shaping their policy, instead of blustering away on social media. If you're not a member then maybe you should be. I assume most of the organisations have the opportunity for you to stand for council or at least vote for the people you feel most represent your views.

What's the old saying? All mouth and no trousers.

I guess that is my axe well and truly ground.

ATB

 

[JTO]

Yeah but you said trust no one .... to male an opinion you must get the Info to decide from somewhere / someone and act on some aspect of that Info ... yeah I get your making your own mind up but you must be accepting somebody's Info

Paul

Do you trust the people who say the MMR jab is safe?

 

[Smellydog]

When I asked you what you meant, why couldn't you just say that. Even though it seems a deliberate misunderstanding of what I said. Try giving a straight answer next time.

I very clearly said I don't have an axe to grind in either camp. Meaning - Support a ban on lead or oppose a ban on lead. It is up to you.

Now where I do have an big f***ing big axe to grind is with the idiotic morons that would jeopardise the sport of everyone else by proposing idiotic and potentially unlawful ideas about relabelling lead ammunition or reloading lead in other cases. I still have many shooting friends in the UK and still shoot there myself and want to continue.

I also have an axe to grind with the lazy, apathetic faction that complain and complain about what this organisation or that organisation is doing or not doing on their behalf, but make not the slightest effort to actually do something themselves. If you are a member of one or other organisation, try actually getting involved and shaping their policy, instead of blustering away on social media. If you're not a member then maybe you should be. I assume most of the organisations have the opportunity for you to stand for council or at least vote for the people you feel most represent your views.

What's the old saying? All mouth and no trousers.

I guess that is my axe well and truly ground.

ATB

So I was right the first time, you do have an axe to grind. That makes two of us!

Don't assume either. You know not a thing of mine or others that lost all faith in so called shooting associations a long long time ago and left.
Best wishes.

 

[Smellydog]

Thats how it started in Europe, but the lead shot ban for duck hunting in the US was prompted by Federal research which found that lead was affecting duck numbers at population level, this back in the 60’s and 70’s. That research has never been repudiated, at least so far.

Thanks for your reply but we have good sound measures in place and for a long time now to protect waterfowl

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Historically, as 'hunters' we have been ahead of society on conservation, now rebranded as 'nature recovery'.

From what @BryanDC has been posting it sounds like Danish hunters and their national hunting association are continually trying to ensure that this remains the case by doing the right thing as conservationists in light of evidence as it arises on ammunition for their various target and live quarry shooting disciplines.

No doubt there will be conspiracy theories and the 'blame game' played out by some Danish hunters on all of this but it sounds like the majority of Danish hunters, as in the UK, are open minded to change.

The film 'Thank you for smoking' may be of interest in this regard. Is it credible for us to claim that 'lead makes you beautiful and healthy' to deflect from the evidence of the impact of lead shot on birds?

The film "Don't look up" might be of interest to some. Ariana Grande sings "Listen to the goddamn qualified scientists" in a quip about the conspiracy theorists dismissing the science and waiting for the 'absolute scientific proof' they were in fact about to die from an incoming asteroid despite all the months of warnings. It did not end well...

 

[Woodenbeam]

sounds like the majority of Danish hunters, as in the UK, are open minded to change.

Are we? Where did that one come from - or is that just reference to life in general that we’re open minded to change
If you’re referring to the proposal to ban lead from shooting then I’d question it.
The anti shooting agenda would like us to remove all lead & replace with either something that doesn’t exist - air rifle pellets & Rimfire. That’s the end of them.
Or is extortionately expensive - bismuth & the likes. Or is questionable if it work as well, steel, for shot, copper for bullets.
And why are we doing this? Because lead is toxic - no shite Sherlock but where are all the bodies hidden? There is no reason for change other than a political agenda (either from BASC or the the anti’s). Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. If these changes all happen alongside licensing fee adjustments shooting numbers will decline to an insignificant amount & then who cares……….

 

[BryanDC]

So I was right the first time, you do have an axe to grind. That makes two of us!

Don't assume either. You know not a thing of mine or others that lost all faith in so called shooting associations a long long time ago and left.
Best wishes.

Still not reading my reply. But lets forget that and move on.

However the important thing is, you feel let down by the shooting organisations (that you are no longer a member of). But I have some questions.

When you were a member, did you ever actively take part in that organisation; locally, regionally or nationally?
Did you use your right to vote for members of the council that best suited your views and aims?
Did you ever even write to your local representative to voice your views when you were a member? (If you cannot answer yes to at least some of the above then I don't know why you feel let down.)
Do you know if the majority of members in those various organisation are for or against a voluntary move away from lead? (That would be good question for the organisations).
Do you know if generally the shooting community is for or against a voluntary move away from lead? (At the end of the day the membership of SD is a very small sample of the wider shooting community and there are some that support a ban and if you read the threads, many that already use non-lead ammunition).
If you feel there is a majority of shooters that don't want a ban on lead, could you and others with the same view, not get together and organise a lobbying group to take your argument to the HSE and government? It would cost you some money but so does membership of a shooting organisation.

AS an extra thought and just to play devils advocate. Do the general public not have some say in the use of lead ammunition? You could argue that as it potentially (percievably) affects them, they should have a say.

I Do understand your frustration with this issue. I think unfortunately shooting, especially in the UK is under so much pressure from many directions. On a personal level I think my old clay shooting club where I was a member for over 30 years, will fall victim to a ban and have to close. It is on an SSSI and there is no chance of either recovering lead or plastic wads. Biowads would maybe be an option but the majority of members would probably not pay for them.

ATB

 

[Apthorpe]

So ask yourself where does all the lead in cereals potatoes etc come from? Most of the lead deposits are in the western / northern upland non agricultural parts of the UK.

It comes from the soil, obviously. The quantities of lead in soil make the alleged 6-7000 tonnes of lead ammunition per year vanishingly insignificant.
A back of envelope calculation and information easily available to all shows that A) lead is more widely present than you think and B) that the quantities of lead in soil run into the millions of tonnes. Also that even the very top layer of soil carries quantities of lead which again render lead ammunition insignificant.

Ammunition is not one of the major sources of this lead.

 

[Smellydog]

I Do understand your frustration with this issue. I think unfortunately shooting, especially in the UK is under so much pressure from many directions.

A; lead is Omni present naturally.
B; no evidence exists of illness can be directly linked to consuming game shot with lead.
C; no evidence of chronic or acute levels of illness in ammunition work employees or zinc processing industries.
D; no concessions for small bore or gauge shotguns.
E; no confession for muzzleloaders.
F; the lack of appreciation for historical gun type with casual expectations to have to use an expensive alternative but no one wants to subsidize it.
D; alternative shot in muzzleloaders is still not as good as lead.
E; being told what to do by people that do not share my passion but seek political peer approval.
F; being made to feel like a bigot or anti woke for doing absolutely nothing wrong at all.

ATB.

 

[BryanDC]

A; lead is Omni present naturally.
B; no evidence exists of illness can be directly linked to consuming game shot with lead.
C; no evidence of chronic or acute levels of illness in ammunition work employees or zinc processing industries.
D; no concessions for small bore or gauge shotguns.
E; no confession for muzzleloaders.
F; the lack of appreciation for historical gun type with casual expectations to have to use an expensive alternative but no one wants to subsidize it.
D; alternative shot in muzzleloaders is still not as good as lead.
E; being told what to do by people that do not share my passion but seek political peer approval.
F; being made to feel like a bigot or anti woke for doing absolutely nothing wrong at all.

ATB.

As I say. I understand your frustration. But all of your above points are irrelevant to many people and if you want to be heard you will have to get together. Either within or outside the existing organisations. Otherwise you have no voice. You are part of a tiny minority.

I do not agree with your point C above. It is maybe better today but the effects of heavy metal poisoning in industry are very well known and I believe documented. In the UK such things are reportable by law. There is a reason we never weld zinc plated steel in our workshops.

 

[JTO]

As for influencing from the inside, the UK left the EU because it just isn't possible. It's like trying to make our Civil Srvice efficient by working there.

 

[finnbear270]

Bit like the voice.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Are we? Where did that one come from - or is that just reference to life in general that we’re open minded to change
If you’re referring to the proposal to ban lead from shooting then I’d question it.
The anti shooting agenda would like us to remove all lead & replace with either something that doesn’t exist - air rifle pellets & Rimfire. That’s the end of them.
Or is extortionately expensive - bismuth & the likes. Or is questionable if it work as well, steel, for shot, copper for bullets.
And why are we doing this? Because lead is toxic - no shite Sherlock but where are all the bodies hidden? There is no reason for change other than a political agenda (either from BASC or the the anti’s). Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. If these changes all happen alongside licensing fee adjustments shooting numbers will decline to an insignificant amount & then who cares……….

Yes, I think we as the original conservationists are open minded to change. The context here is not any lead ban (there is none) rather voluntary moves in Denmark explained by @BryanDC by hunters away from plastic wads in the face of the evidence. Here in the UK change has been happening since February 2020 when all the shooting organisations started encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and attitudes to the science underpinning this have changed hugely over the last 5 years. This very thread is evidence of how far we have come in changes in attitudes. I appreciate you have your own views about the science given the 'where are all the bodies hidden' comment, and it's perhaps not for me to explain how nature works in clearing up all creatures great and small, but I think deep down you know it's a weak argument against the well researched fact across many species here and worldwide that lead shot ingestion in birds results in lead poisoning. Let's look at it another way - can you recommend me a research paper on lead shot poisoning in birds that you agree with and why you agree with it?

 

[Druid]

Do you trust the people who say the MMR jab is safe?

It is safe.

Far safer than catching measles, mumps or rubella

 

[JTO]

It is safe.

Far safer than catching measles, mumps or rubella

Is it as safe as having the seperate vaccines?

 

[Druid]

Is it as safe as having the seperate vaccines?

Do you think there is a difference?

Have a read about how this sort of made up baseless scaremongering rubbish impacts on society.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landig/article/PIIS2589-7500(19)30136-0/fulltext