Legal advice

[jimmy milnes]

Not really of help to the original poster issue but
As some of the more knowledgeable dog men are obviously watching the thread I'd like to ask their opinions on a conversation I was having with a GSP woman the other week regarding hip scoring
Now she was saying that a "let's say" 0/0 hs is not ideal as the joint is too tight and could cause excess ware so in her mind say a "3/3 would be better
Could I ask the opinions of yourselves on this ?

Edit.... I for one would like to see compulsory health screening for all dogs bred from for the sake of all breeds. A difficult ask I know but if the KC weren't so money mad they could easily say any pup being registered must have fully documented/recorded parental health screening

 

[cowsmart]

What area is the breeder in...? Just to know to stay away from them, I'm not saying name and shame, but a village or area could help.

 

[Wolverine]

Not really of help to the original poster issue but
As some of the more knowledgeable dog men are obviously watching the thread I'd like to ask their opinions on a conversation I was having with a GSP woman the other week regarding hip scoring
Now she was saying that a "let's say" 0/0 hs is not ideal as the joint is too tight and could cause excess ware so in her mind say a "3/3 would be better
Could I ask the opinions of yourselves on this ?

Edit.... I for one would like to see compulsory health screening for all dogs bred from for the sake of all breeds. A difficult ask I know but if the KC weren't so money mad they could easily say any pup being registered must have fully documented/recorded parental health screening

In my mind Jimmy,your lady is 100% correct,I am also always very wary when a 0/0 score comes back-not for same reason as your lady.
This score means that both hips are perfect-nothing wrong......
I then ask myself,has the score been done correctly?
Has the score been done too young?
Getting perfect Hips is not normal.
So in agreement with your lady Jimmy.
Within your edit Jimmy-this is why we at UKSHA have went the ISHV route,all our dogs and pups are 100% health screened.
The UK KC wanted us to register Hannoverscher Schweißhund here,I have been in discussion with them and explained politely(honestly)that we would be receiving papers from the original breed societies in Germany with the full support of the FCI.
So in short,we do not care what the UK KC want,we are doing what is good for both of our respective breeds.
My Labradors are fully health tested,as are any bitches mating with them,as it comes back on my dog otherwise.
Any breeder who wants the best for their pups will not hesitate to health test.
It is about improvements of breeds.
All the best
George

 

[jimmy milnes]

Cheers George, Greymaster, Countryboy ? What's your thoughts please?

 

[fordbank]

If ur vets and a 2nd opinion says it is 100% correct daignosis and it is in the line/breeding and 100% not due to external factors u may have a case, but i'd say unless he knew his lines carried this problem it would be very hard to prove.

If he has a decent rep the chances are its just an innocent 1 off.


Meant to add to last post, with the new MyKC thing on there site u can track litter mates of ur dog and related dogs, it should be made compulsory that any potentially heriditory diseases or serious diseases should be reported.
So then u could log on and see if anything affects ur litter mates or previous litters out of sire/dam it could give u an idea of any health problems it could be carrying genes for without being affected.

But it will never happen as cost too many folk money if a probelm shows up in there line

Countryboy, I have been told by 2 separate vets/surgeons that the disease in Lucy's legs HAS been passed from her parents, also that Lucy's siblings will have 50% of Lucy's gene make up so the also "might " be susceptible to it.

 

[deerstalker.308]

Reading that there is a lot of sitting in the fence by the vet, the use of terms like 'may be subtle evidence'. It's in one elbow, the rest is 'unremarkable'. Also they make reference to the poor quality of the X-ray? Not instilling much confidence for my liking persoanlly.
As someone else already said, different vets will give very different opinions of the same X-ray or test result, being utterly cynical you could argue (and I'm not, just playing devils advocate) that the vet is keen for the work?
Im still feeling like this is unlucky on your part and yes, maybe the breeder should not have bred from the bitch, but at what point in that dogs life do you feel it becomes entirely your responsibility? Or will you always be looking back to the breeder for any future ailment which might have been genetic?

 

[fordbank]

Sorry for the quality.
In response toMickeydred, I only made the breeder aware of the problem yesterday as Lucy had her operation last week , we had to wait for a CT scan to see what the actual problem was before they operated. The first indication there was a problem was when she was around 17 weeks old, I'd only had her 7 weeks when I first noticed she had strange "gate" when walking down the garden. We've been back and forth to the vets ever since. It's been a slow process.
Cheers ,Scott

 

[fordbank]

Deerstalker.308

Yes I agree with you on that on but that was just a report on the X-rays what the local vet sent for advice. I've posted the post operation report by the surgeon/specialist which I believe to be true.

Cheers,Scott

 

[countrryboy]

Must admit i've been involed with gundogs and beating lines for quite a long time, and if hinest the vast majority of dogs on the beating line will come from untested bitches and some untested sires with little eye testing done either.
Really it should be a recipe for disaster but i've never even heard of a locally bred working dog having hip displasia, most of pups are sold locally so any problems come back throu the 'jungle drums' pretty quick.

I hought the scoring only showed for Hip displasia is congenitsal arthritis the same thing? or would it even show up in the scoring xray?

Aye i realise vets are not meant to 'sore' the xray but i imagine most would say to their clients to save their money (think it costs about 100ish to get them graded/scored officailly) it should be compulsory to get them scored but also to enter them onto the KC files.

The other problem is the 'sore' is assesed by an expert but not all expert may asses it the exact same, so 1 assesors 0/0 could be another mans 1/1.

Its it that common to see 0/0 hips? I know for the elbow scores 00 is the norm with a 3/ 3 being the worst

Can see where the lass is coming from about a perfect hip score, it does not necceassary mean they are too tight it may just mean they are 'perfect' , will really depend wot the criteria is for scoring
Dunno if tight hips are a problem but if they are they mibee should have some negative scores for too tight ie -1, so 0/0 is ideal




I see it is the elbows ur having problems with rather than the hips, so even if dam was hip scored it might not have made any difference, really only ur big name stud dogs that have their elbows scored,but never seen many pups advertised with bitches elbow score.


Is hip displasia not quite a modern, semi modern disease? Genrally caused by modern breeding habitats, travelling ,ong distances for sires and breeding some poor bitches to top sires so making gene pool a lot smaller. Also making some lines/indivdual dogs more prominant in the whole breed
If u went back 30-40 yrs most dogs wuld be bred and sold locally, any dog with a serious illness would probably have got the bullet and PTS, and everyone local would know the breeding lines and stay away from it.
Dogs were bred realively healthly for hundreds of years long before health tests.

While not a big fan of testing as i sometimes see it as a money making racket and it does not guarantee anything, if it was compulsory it may help but i actually doubt it would.
I see more and more different breds now hip scored, possibly thre is a reason but more likely over cautious breeders doing iit uneccesarily or trying to get more for pups


Wot would help is wot i mentioned earlier, if every major serious disease/illness had to be registered with KC, anyone could search the MyKC thing and it would come up any illnesses of related dogs or potetial new pups. Would give u a veery good idea of wot lines are affected with wot and wot dogs may be carriers of reccesive genes.

My middle aged lab is not bad stocky type, i know 1 of his litter siblings and 2 in the repeat mating have a heart murmur, mine is ok but i'd never breed from him because of that, he could be a carrier.
If everyone had access to all that info for related dogs it really could help to minimise some heriditory illnesses, possibly more so than testing as u don't get tests for everything but every illness shows up if u watch enough dogs

 

[deerstalker.308]

They're tested by a panel of vets (the same vets each time I believe) who meet on a monthly/6weekly basis to examine X-rays so there is absolutely continuity in the process.....

 

[countrryboy]

MUst admit i never realised ur pup was quite so young, i thought it ws a bit older.

It really is a tricky 1, it all depends on the pup, have ur kids ever dropped it by accident? has it been knocked as a pup by its litter mates? stood on by bitch?
At that age it would seem genetic but still a few enviromental things that could off appened which u can't prevent or forsee no matter how good the breeder is

I doubt u will ever get any satisfaction legally and just stir up a lot of bad feeling and resentment, not worth it esp if he's alocal shooting communities are pretty small.
Reallly only preventable if he has had other pups with this condition (which i would hope not).

I'd say ur most likely outcome isto be offered a free pup next time he breeds a litter (if u want 1 form his lines) but almost any line can throu up an odd rogue illness from time to time, there is no guarantees.

A sheeps farmer i know, his brothr buys top end pedigree tups anything up to 100K a tup, he says it silly as they die just as easily as any other sheep, which is true with any livestock/dogs.


I think it could cost u a fortune in vets fees assesments and i doubt many vets will come out and say 100% it was breeding or a rival expert vet could argue the oppisate and even if u win the case wot are u really going to achieve?

 

[Gaz]

We bought a Gsp pup, recommended by friend who also bought one, new breed for me so was being led by an experienced owner, plus from the other side of the country so no pre visit, again advice by other pup buyer. At 5 months noticed white dot in eye, and took to local vet where he diagnosed cataract, a further to examination by eye specialists, Bilateral (both eyes)Hereditary Cataracts were proved by eye specialists. I approached breeder who was sympathetic but never offered a refund even though I was specific in requesting it and to return the dog. This dog would go blind and would definitely not be fit for the purpose she was purchased for. Battle commenced and breeder just swept it under the carpet, **** breeder obviously as she wouldn't offer a full refund, so not a reputable one either. We never pressed further and the dog is in a rescue.
I did find out that neither parents were eye tested, and that there is no dna health testing for gsp for HC, but even that wouldn't have prevented this, it just so happens, that that particular mating should never be again repeated as there is something between the sire and dam that obviously caused this.
The breeder in your case offered you a full refund and to return the pup to him, so in hindsight of this you were given a fair offer but as you have said you couldn't part with her now, you may just have to put it behind you and move on as hard and annoying as it may be. Again sorry for your situation.