Lost deer

[mchughcb]

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I do take a lot of neck and head shots, IF I am confident in whats presented. It has never been because of meat damage concerns, it's to stop Sika running off into thick forestry making recovery difficult, especially on last light,

Above are photos that show what can just was easily go wrong with a chest shot. I get fed up to be honest when I hear folk decrying neck/head shots as they OFTEN go wrong.....apparently. Well I've had to track and find a lot more chest shot deer than those who have been attempted with neck shots.

I'm also fed up finding deer with a bullet through their snout, or their jaws blown off. Quite frankly its the "professionals" using light calibre guns that seem to be the main culprits. Whilst a chest shot can turn out to be a liver shot, a good 220-400gr projectile is going to make sure that the animal will succumb. The vital area for killing a deer is larger in the heart/lung/spine and it is less mobile than it is for the brain or the neck. If the calibre you are using isn't stopping them quickly time to re-assess the calibre, and the projectiles.

 

[baguio]

I wouldn't have described mine as a misplaced shot!
The distance was about 150 yds and the POI was as intended with the deer not quite square on from behind.

Maybe not but it didn't hit the spine which would have been ideal. Obviously you were close to it and it sounds like the buck would probably have bled out but it wasn't perfect. How much further from perfect would your shot have needed to be for the beast to have got up and run off? We will never know, but neck shots and particularly side on neck shots, do require good knowledge of the deer make up and good shooting. The fact remains that your buck hit the floor and stayed there which was your aim. Clearly your knowledge, shooting and bullet done the job!

 

[straightbetweentheeyes]

Well had a crap week at work and then to top it off I lost my knife whilst frantically trying to find a fallow doe, I had waited for 40 minutes as the herd knew something was up I picked out a young cull doe target area was the neck only 80yds away, she dropped on the spot as quickly as I reloaded she got up staggered a little then ran like the clappers searched for two hours with my dog no sign no blood no hair, I feel awful felt like throwing my rifle in the ditch I'll be up there again tomorrow, as my bestest said you stalk deer long enough things like this happen and if you didn't care you shouldn't be stalking.
Just thought I'd share this cheers 

For future reference if you get any more lost deer feel free to contact me and I will try and help out with the dog...

regards, Jez

 

[jamross65]

I'm also fed up finding deer with a bullet through their snout, or their jaws blown off. Quite frankly its the "professionals" using light calibre guns that seem to be the main culprits. Whilst a chest shot can turn out to be a liver shot, a good 220-400gr projectile is going to make sure that the animal will succumb. The vital area for killing a deer is larger in the heart/lung/spine and it is less mobile than it is for the brain or the neck. If the calibre you are using isn't stopping them quickly time to re-assess the calibre, and the projectiles.

Which is why I said IF I am confident with the shot presented. Your describing idiots who clearly don't wait until the shot is on.

 

[Yoda]

I'm also fed up finding deer with a bullet through their snout, or their jaws blown off. Quite frankly its the "professionals" using light calibre guns that seem to be the main culprits. Whilst a chest shot can turn out to be a liver shot, a good 220-400gr projectile is going to make sure that the animal will succumb. The vital area for killing a deer is larger in the heart/lung/spine and it is less mobile than it is for the brain or the neck. If the calibre you are using isn't stopping them quickly time to re-assess the calibre, and the projectiles.

Well said sir but be careful now!!!
You will be accused of being an anti and not sticking together for our sport
Bla bla bla!!
In fact the biggest threat to shooting is the "pro" who thinks he can shoot a fly at 800 yards blindfolded because he's CONFIDENT (testicles) and then putting pictures of blood stained carcasses on the Internet.
You can't teach them anything about calibres either because they've got CONFIDENCE to shot elephants with
22 Hornets

Yes exaggerations, but people I know are getting fed up with these long range gods who never do anything wrong. They are people who give ammunition to the antis and will destroy shooting.

 

[countrryboy]

And over the last few hours I agree myself I think I was too soft and only now after hearing of the horror stories I realise I :::;ed up big time what I ment by 'it's won' is she has escaped death so I'd let her enjoy life instead of shooting her, but that's not correct as in terms of welfare for her. It won't happen again absolutely harsh lesson chers

Thats one of the best posts i seen for a while. Fair play to u for posting in first place but also acknowledging u could of done it better in hindsight. Things are always easy in hindsight thou, or sitting behind a computer screen.
It's good u learned from ur mistake which can happen to anyone and i bet a lot more folk have learned from ur mistake also which has to be a positive thing.
Every day is a school day

Think u said it was a dark fallow doe, it would be very hard to spot a bullet hole in the neck if bullet has pased throu and not expanded and even more so as i think u said it had been raining so no dried blood stain.

I think i would be possibly trying to target that doe anyway just incase and it puts ur mind at rest and lets u examine if/where u hit it.
At this time of year it probably will survive if just grazed the vertebra/neck.
But if ur planning on shooting any more does this season that 1 would go to the top of the cull list (same wi folk who let deer out of fences, i just PTS them as if u seen limping deer it would go to the top of cull list)

With H/N shots a lot is made of accuracy etc which u need to have but even having knowledge of deer behaviour if/when likely to move there heads so best time to take shot, that only really comes from experience no matter how good a shot u are.

Possibly calling head/neck shots Brain/Spine shots would be more accurate as really not enough to just hit the head or neck and it emphisises wot ur trying to do

 

[sauer]

I would never tell somebody not to take head or neck shots , I don't know them or ability .... Me personally its engine room shots

But will say ... How many folk here taken someone out , guy has went for an engine room shot and ended up battering it through a haunch ?

Seen a beast in a local larder & this what happened apparently.
Can go wrong no matter where your aiming I guess

Paul

 

[jamross65]

Well said sir but be careful now!!!
You will be accused of being an anti and not sticking together for our sport
Bla bla bla!!
In fact the biggest threat to shooting is the "pro" who thinks he can shoot a fly at 800 yards blindfolded because he's CONFIDENT (testicles) and then putting pictures of blood stained carcasses on the Internet.
You can't teach them anything about calibres either because they've got CONFIDENCE to shot elephants with
22 Hornets

Yes exaggerations, but people I know are getting fed up with these long range gods who never do anything wrong. They are people who give ammunition to the antis and will destroy shooting.

Where has long range shooting been mentioned here? In fact the only reference that could be possibly inferred from comments was probably to relatively close range shooting in a comment I made earlier, 'IF' the shot is on, whereby I'd think that was obvious the IF part would likely include range, wind, lean, deer behaviour and obviously general ability. I've NEVER lost a deer or been present when one has been lost that was neck or head shot. Anyway, that isn't what this thread is about...

 

[jamross65]

I would never tell somebody not to take head or neck shots , I don't know them or ability .... Me personally its engine room shots

But will say ... How many folk here taken someone out , guy has went for an engine room shot and ended up battering it through a haunch ?

Seen a beast in a local larder & this what happened apparently.
Can go wrong no matter where your aiming I guess

Paul

That is a very fair comment Sauer.

Folk too often jump up and down on here without having a clue about all the facts, sometimes based on a patchy story or otherwise because of stuff they've just made up.

 

[Yoda]

sometimes based on a patchy story or otherwise because of stuff they've just made up.

How do you know that are you a mind reader
Anyway that's not what this thread is about

 

[jamross65]

How do you know that are you a mind reader
Anyway that's not what this thread is about

It's for that very reason I know others do make up stuff to suit an argument. Because I can't determine the whole facts......as I wasn't there and only have a patchy story. So, by some of the comments made I assume that the OP on occasions was accompanied by 35 folk in their armchairs, or.....................they are mind readers.........

 

[Yoda]

It's for that very reason I know others do make up stuff to suit an argument. Because I can't determine the whole facts......as I wasn't there and only have a patchy story. So, by some of the comments made I assume that the OP on occasions was accompanied by 35 folk in their armchairs, or.....................they are mind readers.........

Oh sorry
You are obviously one of the perfect Gods

 

[jamross65]

Oh sorry
You are obviously one of the perfect Gods

No, and one of my failings is not being able to ignore some of the pish folk come out with at times as there are some impressionable beginners to the sport listening in. 'Better to let folk think your an idiot, than open your mouth and confirm it for them' type of issue I have....

I said on the post with the photos, I thought the buck was dead but was wrong. It's not about being perfect, it's about learning and having the means to rectify something if it doesn't go to plan. I've been stalking for 25 years and I'm still happy to learn but this experience has earned me the right to comment, based on what I'VE learned. But some of the comments made by certain folk are deliberately posted to inflame the situation and cause an argument. Some are just posted for the sake of posting, with no value whatsoever to the theme.

Folk that decry head shots for example. That's why I said Sauer was correct. Who are we to say someone shouldn't take such and such a shot as we know nothing about them, or the type of circumstances they take the shots in. The post earlier about deer being found with jaws shot off, I accept that. Just like I accept the statistics of vehicle accidents involving teenagers. That doesn't mean all teenagers shouldn't drive!

It is ALL about knowing your limitations and that includes range, ability to shoot in the first place, conditions, deer behaviour......everything. But some just like to think they preach from the manual instead of getting out and doing it.

I shot two roe deer from a high seat last week with my mate sat there. First was a heart shot, second was a head shot. Those were the shots I was presented with at the time and I felt comfortable with taking.

 

[jamross65]

I would never say the OP was wrong to take a neck shot. If his range and all other factors were okay, he was obviously comfortable with it. But it went wrong. The photos I posted were from a shot off sticks from about 75yds. An easy shot, generally. But it went wrong however, we had the means and ability to rectify it.

I just felt that on this occasion there has been a lot of speculation by the OP and some others about where this doe was in fact struck but no proof of this has been found, but it was most certainly hit. Therefore, as she was a beast fitting the cull criteria, so all thoughts of 'leaving to live another day' are out the window. She has an injury. She is thought to be seen the following day. She should have been shot. Even if it proved to be a different beast the OP has sill found a deer that matches the profile of a cull beast, as it looks the same as the one he tried to take the previous day. So, it should have been shot anyway. That was the observation and criticism I think I, and one or two others made. Maybe the OP wants to learn from that feedback, maybe not. Maybe he disagrees. Won't change my opinion. That and the fact a 'trained' tracking dog from UKSHA or UKDTR was available, but appears to not have been used. I may be wrong on the last part...

However, from that you've decided I'm one of those 'perfect gods who can do no wrong'. See what I mean about some some folk not being able to help posting inflammatory comments???

 

[Yoda]

Bijssg I admire you for putting this on, knowing it would cause controversy.
I always seem to engage mouth or rather, fingers before brain. None of my earlier rants have been aimed directly at you, just generalising. I've read all the posts again and couldn't find the answer.
Why did you use a neck shot?

 

[FrenchieBoy]

No, and one of my failings is not being able to ignore some of the pish folk come out with at times as there are some impressionable beginners to the sport listening in. 'Better to let folk think your an idiot, than open your mouth and confirm it for them' type of issue I have....

I said on the post with the photos, I thought the buck was dead but was wrong. It's not about being perfect, it's about learning and having the means to rectify something if it doesn't go to plan. I've been stalking for 25 years and I'm still happy to learn but this experience has earned me the right to comment, based on what I'VE learned. But some of the comments made by certain folk are deliberately posted to inflame the situation and cause an argument. Some are just posted for the sake of posting, with no value whatsoever to the theme.

Folk that decry head shots for example. That's why I said Sauer was correct. Who are we to say someone shouldn't take such and such a shot as we know nothing about them, or the type of circumstances they take the shots in. The post earlier about deer being found with jaws shot off, I accept that. Just like I accept the statistics of vehicle accidents involving teenagers. That doesn't mean all teenagers shouldn't drive!
It is ALL about knowing your limitations and that includes range, ability to shoot in the first place, conditions, deer behaviour......everything. But some just like to think they preach from the manual instead of getting out and doing it.

I shot two roe deer from a high seat last week with my mate sat there. First was a heart shot, second was a head shot. Those were the shots I was presented with at the time and I felt comfortable with taking.

Very good post, which I agree with wholeheartedly! I don't believe that any of us professing to be gods, I'm certainly not and I know how to restrict myself to my abilities, and (Most importantly if all) I fully realise that no matter how much a man thinks he knows or how good he believes he is at his job there is always room for more knowledge and improvement. That is what being a member of this forum is all about, learning from others and broadening your knowledge!
I have kept fairly quite throughout this thread but have followed it carefully. As has been shown a heart and lung shots can go just as wrong as a head or neck shot -Thet is a fact that we all have to face up to every time we take a shot no matter if it is a head, neck or heart and lung shot, and IF the shot goes wrong it is up to the shooter concerned to do whatever he/she can to rectify it, which the OP seems to have done.
Maybe the OP has learned something from this thread - I certainly have and hope that others have too!

 

[camodog]

This has been, by and large, a very interesting and engaging thread thus far. Many good points from all sides of the discussion. Earlier in the thread I mentioned the margin for error in H/N shots tiny by comparison with H/L shots. My point being - there is a greater likely-hood of a protracted 'follow-up'/lost deer with the former. In addition a 'fleshy' wound or shout/jaw injury leaves you with an extremely mobile 'fit' deer, able to run for mile after mile. Certainly able to out-run a deer/tracking dog! Whereas, an erronious H/L shot is almost certainly going to cause a more debilitating injury, slowing the deer down, leaving a better trail, more likely causing the deer to 'wound-bed' sooner, allow a greater opportunity for a 'follow-up shot/s, and all of this usually allows a shorter follow-up to a successful conclusion. If sadly the deer is still lost, then due to the injury, is likely to succumb much sooner due to blood-loss/shock/infection more rapidly than one with it's jaw shot away or perforated wind-pipe/throat.
Also, did someone say they'd never lost a head/neck shot deer in 'years of stalking' ? how many years? how many deer shot? how do they know if they have not shot it's 'bottom teeth out'? Would you admit to it even if you had? I doubt it! Telling people you've 'creased' the neck of a deer is a 'world away' from saying you 'shot it's jaw off'! That head/neck is SO mobile, I should have thought that poor-light/last light would have been the least possible and least justifiable circumstances in which to take a H/N shot, no matter how 'confident' you are. I have shot sika, red and roe in close proximity to dense forestry and had them run into cover with H/L shots, then recovered the deer with my dog! If the deer have been standing in tall vegetation, only H/N visible, poor/last light, then wise to 'pass' on the shot I think.

 

[jamross65]

This has been, by and large, a very interesting and engaging thread thus far. Many good points from all sides of the discussion. Earlier in the thread I mentioned the margin for error in H/N shots tiny by comparison with H/L shots. My point being - there is a greater likely-hood of a protracted 'follow-up'/lost deer with the former. In addition a 'fleshy' wound or shout/jaw injury leaves you with an extremely mobile 'fit' deer, able to run for mile after mile. Certainly able to out-run a deer/tracking dog! Whereas, an erronious H/L shot is almost certainly going to cause a more debilitating injury, slowing the deer down, leaving a better trail, more likely causing the deer to 'wound-bed' sooner, allow a greater opportunity for a 'follow-up shot/s, and all of this usually allows a shorter follow-up to a successful conclusion. If sadly the deer is still lost, then due to the injury, is likely to succumb much sooner due to blood-loss/shock/infection more rapidly than one with it's jaw shot away or perforated wind-pipe/throat.
Also, did someone say they'd never lost a head/neck shot deer in 'years of stalking' ? how many years? how many deer shot? how do they know if they have not shot it's 'bottom teeth out'? Would you admit to it even if you had? I doubt it! Telling people you've 'creased' the neck of a deer is a 'world away' from saying you 'shot it's jaw off'! That head/neck is SO mobile, I should have thought that poor-light/last light would have been the least possible and least justifiable circumstances in which to take a H/N shot, no matter how 'confident' you are. I have shot sika, red and roe in close proximity to dense forestry and had them run into cover with H/L shots, then recovered the deer with my dog! If the deer have been standing in tall vegetation, only H/N visible, poor/last light, then wise to 'pass' on the shot I think.

I agree with this post, and think it was me that said I had NEVER lost a head or neck shot beast. If it wasn't i certainly typed that and think I posted it, have to check back. It's true. Never. I've shot a few deer over the years and for about 10 of those the vast majority, certainly over 75% were neck/head shot Sika in forestry (there is a clue there). The cull on one 2000acre block was 70 Sika and 40 roe if I remember correctly. I managed them over 7000+acres in total for some of that time. They are a fairly large animal, and in forestry the distance we were shooting them in the neck/head at was restricted by the land. Hand on heart, never lost one. Haven't missed one I've tried to take in the neck/head either. I've creased the spine a few times but always followed up with a second shot, and I've had them stand up and wander off looking drunk before being shot again. Missed my fair share in the body shots though. Wonder why that is? Do we become a wee bit unconsciously complacent with some shots but concentrate more intensely with the potentially hard ones? Dunno, but your right about a neck wound being very, very difficult to track and recover.

Meant to add too, a wounded deer is a wounded deer. Each has a story or reason, so in fairness to me a messed up head shot has the same 'reasons' for missing as a messed up chest shot that's blown a leg off. Something went wrong. Now needs sorted. But something also to be learned from that experience so that particular reason doesn't occur again....

 

[camodog]

I agree with this post, and think it was me that said I had NEVER lost a head or neck shot beast. If it wasn't i certainly typed that and think I posted it, have to check back. It's true. Never. I've shot a few deer over the years and for about 10 of those the vast majority, certainly over 75% were neck/head shot Sika in forestry (there is a clue there). The cull on one 2000acre block was 70 Sika and 40 roe if I remember correctly. I managed them over 7000+acres in total for some of that time. They are a fairly large animal, and in forestry the distance we were shooting them in the neck/head at was restricted by the land. Hand on heart, never lost one. Haven't missed one I've tried to take in the neck/head either. I've creased the spine a few times but always followed up with a second shot, and I've had them stand up and wander off looking drunk before being shot again. Missed my fair share in the body shots though. Wonder why that is? Do we become a wee bit unconsciously complacent with some shots but concentrate more intensely with the potentially hard ones? Dunno, but your right about a neck wound being very, very difficult to track and recover.

Meant to add too, a wounded deer is a wounded deer. Each has a story or reason, so in fairness to me a messed up head shot has the same 'reasons' for missing as a messed up chest shot that's blown a leg off. Something went wrong. Now needs sorted. But something also to be learned from that experience so that particular reason doesn't occur again....

A valid and considered response. Good point re 'complacency' too. I have always felt that this is the explanation for those 'inexplicable misses' at close shots. This could also be true of close shots taken to the H/N as much as to the H/L though.

 

[eldon]

Missed my fair share in the body shots though. Wonder why that is? Do we become a wee bit unconsciously complacent with some shots but concentrate more intensely with the potentially hard ones? ....

Interesting point as I certainly agree, as a result of experience, with that!
arr... the close up easy shot, can't miss surely.... but erm, Oh dear!

My earlier post involved a good spine shot, hence the paralysis, but even that didn't initially kill it and it could have been a lingering death if not found. I think all shots have the possibility irrespective of POA to go wrong so there is no ideal solution due to too many variables involved.