National wild venison standard

[GeorgeC]

Q&As as follows:

1. Who will do the annual assessments? and how much will they cost? Will they need to have formal National approval?

The standard assesses all stages of the supply chain process from primary producer through to the processor. Assessments are carried out by trained inspectors working to a standard that has been developed by a cross sector working group and developed in line with Scottish Quality Wild Venison, a standard that has a proven track record in supporting food safety audits. All Inspectors will be monitored and be approved by SAI global who are the auditors working on behalf of Grown in Britain and the British Wild Venison Working group. The costs in the first year are Processors = £885-£965, Producer (<300 deer) = £115 + tags @£15 for 50, Producer (300 or more deer) = £440 + tags

2. Which body is managing the audit / assessment system, content and feedback? and is there an appeal process?

SAI global, see the website for the standard and appeals procedure.

3. Is the system built on the British Retail Consortium current system?

For Approved Game Handling Establishments yes – there is no BRC audit for producers.

4. Are the detailed requirements regarding the audit going to be published? by this I mean questions, procedure requirements, auditor / producer interaction [day / night / stalk], if it a measure of hygiene [eg gralloching] what happens should the producer not be successful this day?

The audit of producers will concentrate on paperwork, facilities and procedures and will not require a carcass to be present, the standard that will be audited against is available on the website www.britishqualitywildvenison.co.uk and from SAI Global.

5. Why is non lead use a particular requirement when it is not currently banned? is it process supermarket or FC driven?

This requirement is to satisfy food safety and the expectation from the market that the sector produces wild venison products of the highest standards, to support the development of a wider diverse market for British wild venison especially with the larger retailers.

6. With this implementation, will the bodies driving this guarantee an improved price for the future?

So that producers etc can see some pay back for their investment in the scheme. It is hoped that a premium may be paid in the future for BQWV carcasses, but there is currently no guarantee of this. By supporting the development of standards and traceability throughout the supply chain we hope to develop greater market places for British Wild Venison, which in turn will remove the fluctuations in market price and demand being seen for producers over the past 10 years. There is a need to develop a wider more diverse market space for British Wild Venison in the future, that we hope will provide a more consistent price for producers of British Quality Wild Venison, there are no price guarantees, but developing a more robust market place will provide a more stable market

7. How much are the true fees, and how long will you subsidise the smaller stalkers?

The FC have provided a generous subsidy and it is hoped that this will provide enough incentive for people to join, incentives are currently agreed for two years, at which point an assessment will be made for the requirements for future support for the sector.

8. Before undertaking this change and the presumption that there will be an increase in sales of venison, what marketing was undertaken and is it available?

The working group were informed by expert opinion through the whole supply chain, , the wild venison working group will continue to be working throughout the supply chain to support and enhance this market where possible.

Hi Conor

Thank you for responding to the questions. Some of the answers provide clarity but some are tad "wooly" ie point 8 where it would of been better to have given a better insight on "expert opinion". As it stands now it comes across as poorly shared / taken opinion provided to your membership. Also Point 7, what are the fees pre subsidies. Lastly Point 1, with respect to the numbers you have mentioned are these membership costs or audit costs? If membership, then what are the audit costs please.

Many Thanks
G

 

[Hayduke]

It is our money, not generosity.

7. How much are the true fees, and how long will you subsidise the smaller stalkers?

The FC have provided a generous subsidy and it is hoped . . .

It’s not FCs money, it’s tax payers, I think I am correct.

 

[StephenToast]

It is our money, not generosity.

I assume he means generous as in the size of it rather than it's alturisitic origins.

 

[Pete6.5]

The FC minister launched today.
I have applied but only if I get the grant money

At the risk of sounding silly why jump at so quickly? It's not even needed yet

 

[devon deer stalker]

Initially this got my hackles up because of the way it was created, in an underhand way without seeking opinions from the deer stalkers it will ultimately affect in one way or another, it just smacked of the old defunct DI (clearly not so defunct) and the way it worked.

The video I found just annoying, she is either ignorant to the issues, or has been led down the garden path by the so called experts, talk about rose tinted specs.

I have no doubt the tax payer subsidy will be removed after 12 months, then we would be required to stump up over £300, why, for a system that already exists with full traceability.
We have a deer population completely out of control, they should be paying us a bounty for every deer we cull to off set some of our costs.
They need to get a grip on landowners who don't allow deer to shot on their land, there are too many of them around, and for us it's frustrating with all the hard work we do over winter, and it is hard graft.

I know we are biased, but to the general public venison is a bit like marmite, quite often they will try it once and never try it again, or won't even consider eating Bambi.
Even with promotion it will fail.
They approached the supermarkets, who they claimed will buy British instead of NZ venison to match their quality assurance scheme, we have a free trade agreement with New Zealand since Brexit, I don't think they will be too happy to see trade potentially plummet.

Interesting times ahead.

BTW, @Conor O'Gorman thanks for having the Jacobs to actually respond to the questions, maybe I will reconsider joining BASC!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Hi Conor

Thank you for responding to the questions. Some of the answers provide clarity but some are tad "wooly" ie point 8 where it would of been better to have given a better insight on "expert opinion". As it stands now it comes across as poorly shared / taken opinion provided to your membership. Also Point 7, what are the fees pre subsidies. Lastly Point 1, with respect to the numbers you have mentioned are these membership costs or audit costs? If membership, then what are the audit costs please.

Many Thanks
G

Expanded answers to 1 and 7 as follows:

1.Who will do the annual assessments? and how much will they cost? Will they need to have formal National approval?

The standard assesses all stages of the supply chain process from primary producer through to the processor. Assessments are carried out by trained inspectors working to a standard that has been developed by a cross sector working group and developed in line with Scottish Quality Wild Venison, a standard that has a proven track record in supporting food safety audits. All Inspectors will be monitored and be approved by SAI global who are the auditors working on behalf of Grown in Britain and the British Wild Venison Working group. The costs in the first year are for full audit and certification, Processors = £885-£965 (Full cost £1,062), Producer (<300 deer) = £115 (full cost £270) + tags @£15 for 50, Producer (300 or more deer) = £440 + tags. ( Full cost £528)

7. How much are the true fees, and how long will you subsidise the smaller stalkers?

The FC have provided a generous subsidy and it is hoped that this will provide enough incentive for people to join, incentives are currently agreed for two years, at which point an assessment will be made for the requirements for future support for the sector. Full costs for those producing <300 carcasses £270, >300 carcasses £528 and for AGHE processors £1062

 

[Pete6.5]

they should be paying us a bounty for every deer we cull to off set some of our costs.

This was talked about but was very quickly stamped on by the powers to be and landowners. Why would they when stalkers fight amongst their selfs and under cut each other just so we can provide a service for next to nothing or even pay to do it. As I see it a large chunk of money was allocated by government but instead of it going proportionally to the people doing the job. groups of people are carving the money up because they know stalkers will take it on the chin. It's not about getting the deer population down it's all about the money. If the real goal is to get the population down a bounty scheme would be cheaper and quicker motivating the stalker to get up early on their day off or out on bad weather days. The way to get deer shot is time spent out shooting them not someone charging them to inspect them.
And the answer to how long will they subsidize it for is going to be however long it takes to get enough signed up so there's no going back.

 

[devon deer stalker]

This was talked about but was very quickly stamped on by the powers to be and landowners. Why would they when stalkers fight amongst their selfs and under cut each other just so we can provide a service for next to nothing or even pay to do it. As I see it a large chunk of money was allocated by government but instead of it going proportionally to the people doing the job. groups of people are carving the money up because they know stalkers will take it on the chin. It's not about getting the deer population down it's all about the money. If the real goal is to get the population down a bounty scheme would be cheaper and quicker motivating the stalker to get up early on their day off or out on bad weather days. The way to get deer shot is time spent out shooting them not someone charging them to inspect them.
And the answer to how long will they subsidize it for is going to be however long it takes to get enough signed up so there's no going back.

Pardon the pun, but you are bang on the money there @Pete6.5

Thanks for putting it black and white @Conor O'Gorman

If there is a substantial take up of this scheme, it will create a lot of income from the producers, i.e. us the hard working deer stalker, just where is this money going?
The accounts will make interesting reading.

 

[Pete6.5]

Pardon the pun, but you are bang on the money there @Pete6.5

Thanks for putting it black and white @Conor O'Gorman

If there is a substantial take up of this scheme, it will create a lot of income from the producers, i.e. us the hard working deer stalker, just where is this money going?
The accounts will make interesting reading.

I wish there was a group of people that could set up a shooting association which gained it's money from the membership fee only because it would be easy for the membership to see if the fee was fair ( I wouldn't expect any person or people to run it out the goodness of their heart) but it should be set that they can't generate money from training courses or get grant money from government because as soon as they can it opens up a conflict of interest and they don't think solely about their membership. To be clear I'm not against meeting high standards of venison production I'm always striving to produce a better product myself but this should be pushed by the buyer and they should reject anything sub standard. But for the people that are meant to be in are corner to go behind are back with out even informing us seems mad. Again I'm not totally against a venison assurance scheme but they should remember where the money comes from and not keep us in the dark.

 

[sauer]

another scheme designed by desk jockeys in order to create paperwork and costs to those doing the work and make them
( middleman) more indispensable …
Price per lb or kg for venison has barely changed in over 20yrs … how are they magically gonna make it worth more ?

Yeah I’m a cynic

Paul

 

[Pete6.5]

another scheme designed by desk jockeys in order to create paperwork and costs to those doing the work and make them
( middleman) more indispensable …
Price per lb or kg for venison has barely changed in over 20yrs … how are they magically gonna make it worth more ?

Yeah I’m a cynic

Paul

The venison Price has changed for a long time it was £2.20 for a while but I can remember 20 ish years ago it dropped to 40p per kilo. I can remember driving past herds of fallow and my uncle saying don't pull the trigger they aren't worth the hassle

 

[Taff]

The venison Price has changed for a long time it was £2.20 for a while but I can remember 20 ish years ago it dropped to 40p per kilo. I can remember driving past herds of fallow and my uncle saying don't pull the trigger they aren't worth the hassle

Never remember it that low 80p/ lb was lowest for fallow, in 1980 it was a 1.00 / lb and about the same in 2015 when I left.

 

[Pete6.5]

Never remember it that low 80p/ lb was lowest for fallow, in 1980 it was a 1.00 / lb and about the same in 2015 when I left.

I might be wrong but I'm sure it was very low in the 90s at one point. I will ask Robin when I'm in next.

 

[User00040]

another scheme designed by desk jockeys in order to create paperwork and costs to those doing the work and make them
( middleman) more indispensable …
Price per lb or kg for venison has barely changed in over 20yrs … how are they magically gonna make it worth more ?

Yeah I’m a cynic

Paul

As someone who has worked out of and run larders under the Scottish Quality Wild Venison scheme, I'd say take the British/National/Whatever new standard and ram it where the sun don't shine!

It is the facility that is 'certified' not the venison itself.

I decided to leave a certain government related body when the carcasses coming into the larder were below my personal standards (which I would deem to be in line industry standards).

However, the 'Call from Above' for 'shoot all the deer' was seen to be paramount over producing a quality end product to be purchased by the public, and carcasses that would have otherwise been condemned, would go through as 'Quality Assured'... leaving the decision to accept into the food chain down to the processor. None of which I would have fed to my dog!

As the person who was supposed to be responsible for the larder, I could not continue in that role with good faith. Not going to get tangled in permitting a food poisoning incident.

This new scheme (which speaks for itself) will be more cost to the person who runs their larder, no guarantee of higher prices per kg (could even be lower if you get in with the wrong dealer). Look at the people on the SQWV board and you will see why there is such a push for non-lead bullets...

 

[Taff]

I might be wrong but I'm sure it was very low in the 90s at one point. I will ask Robin when I'm in next.

Is robin still going, lovely people him and his misses, during the 80s, a lot of mine went to John strange or Gordon bond in Lyndhurst.

 

[Pete6.5]

Is robin still going, lovely people him and his misses, during the 80s, a lot of mine went to John strange or Gordon bond in Lyndhurst.

Yep he is still going. I remember seeing your red deer go in there.

 

[Taff]

Yep he is still going. I remember seeing your red deer go in there.

Hope they were upto DSC

 

[GeorgeC]

Expanded answers to 1 and 7 as follows:

1.Who will do the annual assessments? and how much will they cost? Will they need to have formal National approval?

The standard assesses all stages of the supply chain process from primary producer through to the processor. Assessments are carried out by trained inspectors working to a standard that has been developed by a cross sector working group and developed in line with Scottish Quality Wild Venison, a standard that has a proven track record in supporting food safety audits. All Inspectors will be monitored and be approved by SAI global who are the auditors working on behalf of Grown in Britain and the British Wild Venison Working group. The costs in the first year are for full audit and certification, Processors = £885-£965 (Full cost £1,062), Producer (<300 deer) = £115 (full cost £270) + tags @£15 for 50, Producer (300 or more deer) = £440 + tags. ( Full cost £528)

7. How much are the true fees, and how long will you subsidise the smaller stalkers?

The FC have provided a generous subsidy and it is hoped that this will provide enough incentive for people to join, incentives are currently agreed for two years, at which point an assessment will be made for the requirements for future support for the sector. Full costs for those producing <300 carcasses £270, >300 carcasses £528 and for AGHE processors £1062

Conor, thanks for coming back with some answers, it is appreciated

 

[75]

If anyone is disappointed by either the standard or the way it has been implementing then can I please ask that you contact any shooting organisations you are members of and let them know. I've had several one to one discussions with folk on the working group (including the chair) to make my views know (see my post #168 on page 9 of this thread for a summary). I have also emailed the 2 shooting organisations I am a member of.

All conversations have been positive and well received and the emails have been acknowledged swiftly, politely and personally. I feel I have been listened to and that some of the points I've raised had not been thought through.

But I will be a lone voice if no one else makes their views known directly - posting on SD isn't sufficient I'm afraid, as most involved with this initiative have busy full time jobs and not the time to monitor an internet forum.

 

[chaz243]

I'm genuinely surprised by some of the comments on this thread. I am relatively new to stalking having "started" in the late 90s but not doing my DSC1 until 2015, DSC2 in 2017 and DMC in 2018. By doing my DSC1 in 2015 I gained my Large Game certificate and became a "Trained Hunter" and, if I didn't personally elect to periodically refresh my skills and understanding of legislation relating to the processing and handling of a wild food product, that would have been it for the remainder of my stalking "career" moving venison into the local food marketplace. The DSC1 course was completely theoretical and DMQ's change to moving it into DSC2 has IMHO provided a much needed practical aspect of demonstrating best practice and hygienic meat handling. However, the issue remains that this too is a "once in a lifetime" qualification unlike my Local Authority Food Business certification which is based upon both assessment and regular re-inspection. I understand that DEFRA has been concerned for some time over this aspect of "once in a lifetime" certification of food production and I can recall both DMQ and BASC sources both commenting on this being an issue. As a small venison producer handling well under the BQWV Scheme minimum threshold of 300 carcasses I welcome the introduction of this scheme as a move in the right direction to better assuring and promoting wild venison as a healthy and nutrious product that frankly at times, I currently struggle to even give away. Yes, it comes at a cost but as a responsible stalker, I should have nothing to fear if my standards conform to DEFRA policies and best practice guides. For me, this is a step in the right direction.

This is exactly why I asked in the first instance... like you say those of us with a registered food business are inspected each year and given a hygiene rating out if 5 which must be the start of increasing consumer confidence..... If only people ate as much venison as they do on masterchef we would be in a much more wholesome position as suppliers.....