Need for higher standards of marksmanship?

[Selous]

Interesting!
What sort of targets, ranges and positions does that discipline involve?

I have shot at the Eskdalemuir 2 mile range. Steel targets from improvised positions at ranges between 100 and 1000m under time pressure. All that is needed to compete is a rifle and a diallable scope Or graduated reticle. There is even a separate class for 22lr rifles (50-200 yards). Magazine fed rifles are an advantage but not mandatory. The majority of fullbore stages are shot between 200 and 400 yards with some angled shooting and a number of awkward obstacles to shoot over, under and round. It really is excellent fun and really good training for stalking. Position wise there are a fair number of prone stages but you may be forced to shoot off your non dominant shoulder, kneeling, and standing. There has even been a stage to simulate shooting off a small boat!!

https://m.facebook.com/events/452179515663726

 

[bowji john]

Check out

Precision Rifle League

precisionrifleleague.co.uk

Tiff owns and runs an amazing national comp, soon I believe to become international

 

[Basil H]

Is there a manual or textbook which covers marksmanship. I grew up with my father's copies of "A.G.'s Book of the Rifle" and "Random Writings on Rifle Shooting", which taught me a lot, but there must be a modern equivalent.

 

[Dalua]

I quite like Jeff Cooper's 'The Art of the Rifle'. Particularly good for pictures and descriptions of a wide variety of positions, holds and techniques. Also, Peter Lessler's 'Shooter's Guide to Rifle Marksmanship'.

The 'Prescision Rifle' shooting looks interesting and demanding, though I like to practice at deer/fox/whatever-beast targets using the actual rifle and sight I'm likely to have out in the field - and the sporting rifle shoots here meet that requirement well enough.

 

[mchughcb]

First is a recognition that that you are neither carlos hathcock or george digweed without constant practice.

Then you go from there. I now compete at the big game rifle club in the off season to keep my eye in.

 

[Jagare]

Interesting thread and I couldn't agree more. I was really surprised by the standard of shooting on my DSC1 course, where the average barn door would have been safe (even when shot from a bipod). Which was odd, as most rifles "shoot 0.5 MOA bughole groups all day if they do their part".

Joking aside, I think that shooting under pressure has a big part to play. Outside of competition shooting, I guess this is hard to replicate on most ranges.

I noticed the same thing when i did the woodland stalkers cert many years ago. It was not only how bad the level of marksmanship was but also the lack of knowledge about their rifles that many on the course had. Before i moved here i was a member of a small rifle club in the UK for best part of 30 years. A few members were competent shots. There were those that spent every range day chasing their scope round the target and a few who would never make the grade all the time they had a hole in their arse.
My stalking when i lived in the Uk was woodland stalking. Shots were taken using a single stick standing. That worked OK for me in those conditions.
Most of our hunting here is done shooting freehand often at moving targets. So i put in the time down the range to keep my hand in, Plus it good fun.
I would not try long range shooting before i had spent some time and instruction on the range. Where is the satisfaction in hunting and not being competent at what you do.
I bet stalking agents who take people out stalking could tell some real horror stories about the incompetents of some of their clients.

 

[kieran222]

Unfortunately a lot of recreational stalkers don't have the time or money to get the practice/experience. I personally have used my air rifle to practice before moving up the calibers, but not everyone has an air rifle. With regards to using various supporting positions when stalking, I think that most guides when hill stalking work on the basis that the final shot will be taken prone and will do limited checks (if any) on the ability of the stalker to shoot other positions. I remember when I started out stalking I phoned about a stalking booking and the guide said that I was likely to be taking a quick shot off sticks and asked if I would be OK with that. Perhaps more questions like this should be asked by the guides at the booking stage.

With regards to peoples ability to hit the target, I have had friends have a go with my various rifles and sometimes you come across people who can't hit the target for some reason and it doesn't matter how much practice they have. I think this is something that regular stalkers perhaps don't understand.

 

[Tim.243]

Unfortunately a lot of recreational stalkers don't have the time or money to get the practice/experience. I personally have used my air rifle to practice before moving up the calibers, but not everyone has an air rifle. With regards to using various supporting positions when stalking, I think that most guides when hill stalking work on the basis that the final shot will be taken prone and will do limited checks (if any) on the ability of the stalker to shoot other positions. I remember when I started out stalking I phoned about a stalking booking and the guide said that I was likely to be taking a quick shot off sticks and asked if I would be OK with that. Perhaps more questions like this should be asked by the guides at the booking stage.

With regards to peoples ability to hit the target, I have had friends have a go with my various rifles and sometimes you come across people who can't hit the target for some reason and it doesn't matter how much practice they have. I think this is something that regular stalkers perhaps don't understand.

If they don't have the time or money to gain experience then should they put themselves also the outfitter/guide and the quarry in that position...

Teaching diving is a good example, take on a student who has the same above criteria for say a dive master level course with stress tests such as swapping all equipment with a second diver breathing from one regulator, then if they are (and do) bail out because of the lack of practice.

Johan who was here with me in November for stalking shot my .270 so he was happy it went where the x hairs said.
I then moved the plate out to 200 with 3 very nice shots off sticks around the bull.

Toby ( border) will be doing the same when he is here from Norway next month.

Tim.243

 

[Milligan]

Light Sporting Rifle is a great way to get trigger time and shooting offhand.
The pressure of competition induces similar conditions to stalking imo.

 

[Jagare]

If they don't have the time or money to gain experience then should they put themselves also the outfitter/guide and the quarry in that position...

Teaching diving is a good example, take on a student who has the same above criteria for say a dive master level course with stress tests such as swapping all equipment with a second diver breathing from one regulator, then if they are (and do) bail out because of the lack of practice.

Johan who was here with me in November for stalking shot my .270 so he was happy it went where the x hairs said.
I then moved the plate out to 200 with 3 very nice shots off sticks around the bull.

Toby ( border) will be doing the same when he is here from Norway next month.

Tim.243

I know nothing about diving but if i was going to have a go i realize my life is on the line if i don't get advice and training/ practice. With deer stalking you should try at all times to give the deer a clean quick death. Why do we hear so many excuses as to why the " stalker" can't put in the practice. I managed to get to Bisley on a regular basis and now there are several other ranges open plus a shooting cinema in the UK. Diving and stalking cost money and if its to expensive or inconvenient to practice then you need another hobby. How much practice is needed with stamp collecting? sound like there are plenty who need a safer, cheaper hobby.

Tim, I've found its OK to let Toby out in the forest alone but a slap to the back of the head is good if he starts misbehaving. Make him eat up the tomato's or he gets no pudding.

 

[kieran222]

If they don't have the time or money to gain experience then should they put themselves also the outfitter/guide and the quarry in that position...

Teaching diving is a good example, take on a student who has the same above criteria for say a dive master level course with stress tests such as swapping all equipment with a second diver breathing from one regulator, then if they are (and do) bail out because of the lack of practice.

Johan who was here with me in November for stalking shot my .270 so he was happy it went where the x hairs said.
I then moved the plate out to 200 with 3 very nice shots off sticks around the bull.

Toby ( border) will be doing the same when he is here from Norway next month.

Tim.243

Regardless of what you are teaching you should always find out what the trainee's capabilities are before you start. It's the same with shooting. Don't assume that just because the person can put the bullet on the bull from prone that he can do the same from sticks, sitting or what ever. Most people who go on paid stalks do so because they can't get access to that type of stalking or want to get the experience. How many on here were as good a shot at all the positions now as they were on their first stalk. I would imagine none.

 

[Tim.243]

I know nothing about diving but if i was going to have a go i realize my life is on the line if i don't get advice and training/ practice. With deer stalking you should try at all times to give the deer a clean quick death. Why do we hear so many excuses as to why the " stalker" can't put in the practice. I managed to get to Bisley on a regular basis and now there are several other ranges open plus a shooting cinema in the UK. Diving and stalking cost money and if its to expensive or inconvenient to practice then you need another hobby. How much practice is needed with stamp collecting? sound like there are plenty who need a safer, cheaper hobby.

Tim, I've found its OK to let Toby out in the forest alone but a slap to the back of the head is good if he starts misbehaving. Make him eat up the tomato's or he gets no pudding.

He said much the same about you...lol

Having a recommendation is fine....however Neville Chamberlain had a letter in his possession in 1939 lol.

An example from way back, funny enough they were Swedish

The company "Travel Bag " would send people to the dive company I worked for in Hurghada (Egypt)
once a month I would take a safari trip for 6 days, this one was going South diving remote reefs a long way out.
Travel Bag had a condition that people had 25 dives also level 2 cert for a southern safari.
The Swedish flt comes in at 2am so we have a fax manifest of the guests names and diving level etc.

6.30 am the engines start the cook is doing pancakes ( I would eat 4 with honey) and leave around 7.15...
The hard core shaven head Sweeds are up at 6 (getting in the way lol) 2 1/2 hours to the first dive site so people eat and set up their kit...
In that time I ask for dive logs etc, when people hang back my radar starts to tune in, when they put the dive jacket on the tank up side down then I have to step in....
Nice guy Larst if that is how you spell it. turns out he had 4 dives and level one!
I never went on any trip without my training briefcase, so he had to start a level 2 course which he realized was the only way fwd...
He missed the first dive as he was reading but I took him out after I came back, and that is why I used to eat 4 pancakes for breakfast...
Great guy learnt well and had a tear (so did I) at the end of the trip....

Tim

 

[Tim.243]

I know nothing about diving but if i was going to have a go i realize my life is on the line if i don't get advice and training/ practice. With deer stalking you should try at all times to give the deer a clean quick death. Why do we hear so many excuses as to why the " stalker" can't put in the practice. I managed to get to Bisley on a regular basis and now there are several other ranges open plus a shooting cinema in the UK. Diving and stalking cost money and if its to expensive or inconvenient to practice then you need another hobby. How much practice is needed with stamp collecting? sound like there are plenty who need a safer, cheaper hobby.

Tim, I've found its OK to let Toby out in the forest alone but a slap to the back of the head is good if he starts misbehaving. Make him eat up the tomato's or he gets no pudding.

He said much the same about you...lol

Having a recommendation is fine....however Neville Chamberlain had a letter in his possession in 1939 lol.

An example from way back, funny enough they were Swedish

The company "Travel Bag " would send people to the dive company I worked for in Hurghada (Egypt)
once a month I would take a safari trip for 6 days, this one was going South diving remote reefs a long way out.
Travel Bag had a condition that people had 25 dives also level 2 cert for a southern safari.
The Swedish flt comes in at 2am so we have a fax manifest of the guests names and diving level etc.

6.30 am the engines start the cook is doing pancakes ( I would eat 4 with honey) and leave around 7.15...
The hard core shaven head Sweeds are up at 6 (getting in the way lol) 2 1/2 hours to the first dive site so people eat and set up their kit...
In that time I ask for dive logs etc, when people hang back my radar starts to tune in, when they put the dive jacket on the tank up side down then I have to step in....
Nice guy Larst if that is how you spell it. turns out he

Regardless of what you are teaching you should always find out what the trainee's capabilities are before you start. It's the same with shooting. Don't assume that just because the person can put the bullet on the bull from prone that he can do the same from sticks, sitting or what ever. Most people who go on paid stalks do so because they can't get access to that type of stalking or want to get the experience. How many on here were as good a shot at all the positions now as they were on their first stalk. I would imagine none.

Personally I was shooting rabbits free hand with my Dads .22lr free hand back in the 70's so built up a muscle memory from then, I can hold my own pigeon and duck shooting but would not waste a large sum of cash going to shoot the 60/70/80 yard high driven days in Wales as it is not what I do...
To do that I would have to invest a huge amount of time and cash for something I might only do once as I would not want to spend all day with the chance of chipping a few birds...

Off for a duck flight with Jacks first time shooting at dusk....

Tim.243

 

[25 Sharps]

2-There seems to be a high degree of reliance on bipods and sticks now, whatever happened to offhand and sling-supported positions?

My shooting as like many was started off on air guns under the close eye of my Dad, following on to .22lr shooting rabbits...
coupled with starting on a .410 also a bolt action smooth bore garden gun.

For me my deer shooting is an extension of my fox shooting for a number of farms, fox shooting is not a " oh well we saw some deer but next time" it is for me results based much the same as crop protection.
Using the correct tool for the job is why I shoot off quad sticks. where will your off hand shooting come into play with a jumpy fox 200 yards out in the middle of a field...?

Same thing would apply if your off hand shot (or a dead rest shot) was pulled with you know faced with a 200 yard shot also your heart rate off the scale..

All disciplines have there place, however the correct choice is the welfare of the quarry.

A target out in the region of 175/200 would be interesting on the entry level test, mind you I have seen people missing a 100 yard target because of lack of preparation.

Tim.243

Quads are like an extension of my arm

 

[25 Sharps]

To be honest I think generally we have a pretty poor selection of ranges with options for different disciplines available. Look at the guys in the US - they spend months preparing for the season and seem to be really happy with taking 3-600y shots at deer. I'm not saying we should go to that extent (and frankly where apart from Scotland are you going to be making such a shot) but I did see someone say that for every day they spend in the field they want to spend at least a day on the range practicing.

If you're in the You can go to Bisley but so far as I know you cant practice shooting off sticks or from any other position other than prone. You can do this at BSRA but they're not part of the main campus so you need separate membership to get access to their ranges.

Silverstone is a good range but you can only shoot moderated rifles there.

And a lot of clubs require membership before you can shoot at their ranges....

I'm not sure where else there is really thats easily accessible. Its great in the US where theres ranges all over the place that you can just turn up to and shoot but over here I do think its really tricky. I think if there were more places you could easily access then people would be more inclined to go get some practice in.

I'm really lucky that Dorking rifle club does allow me to practice off sticks so I can spend a bit of time doing that with different rifles.

I was shooting off sticks at Bisley last weekend on short Siberia 200 yard firing point as did every member of our club

 

[stubear]

I was shooting off sticks at Bisley last weekend on short Siberia 200 yard firing point as did every member of our club

Good to know! Last time I was on short Siberia I asked I could and the RCO told me it wasn’t allowed anywhere on campus! [emoji849]

Nice to know the left hand knows what the right hand is doing hey!!

 

[25 Sharps]

Good to know! Last time I was on short Siberia I asked I could and the RCO told me it wasn’t allowed anywhere on campus! [emoji849]

Nice to know the left hand knows what the right hand is doing hey!!

You have to let the range office know you want to shoot from standing and have a safety lane in place.

If standing shots weren’t allowed then CSR and half the other comps at Bisley wouldn’t happen!

 

[mchughcb]

Where do we expect the following generations to learn how to correctly and safely carry out practical and physical tasks, many of used to be vital to survival but are now on the decline, especially when no-one went out of their way to show and teach them these skills?

Marksmanship is just one facet of this expansive curriculum which will hopefully not be forgotten.

They start learning on youtube.
Previously it used it was watching.
Then it was books.

 

[Wilbur]

I was told you will be more accurate at 200 yards with a good lean than at 30 yards free standing

 

[Dan Newcombe]

The fact that the DSC1 shooting test is so challenging (to the point of failing) to so many of the people that do it is a good indication that marksPERSONship is maybe not what it should be.