New Home Office Guidance of Firearms Use 2021 - rimfires and Fox, Law on shooting Birds and Animals.
- Thread starter Heym SR20
- Start date
You're right, fox is not classified as game or vermin, but it would need a change in the law to put it into either of those classifications - and the guidance is not law so it cannot clear up the legal confusion.
Cheers
Bruce
Cheers
Bruce
Confusion reigns. You've got to wonder why, yet again they've produced this half-hearted rehash of a document that in many instances creates uncertainty and confusion. A valiant effort by the youth opportunity worker in the office in producing this but more supervision needed by someone with a modicum of knowledge. And for that, there needs to be a job opportunity advertised I feel.
Unfortunately, so true - and it was probably all done from home due to COVID regulations...................
Does that mean they have to be naked?
Old Pultney
Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the trouble to post and share.
No it doesn’t!
It’s nothing to do with what it is suitable for it is what quarry species gives you good reason to possess.
Expanding handgun missiles are not necessarily prohibited! Lots of handgun calibres are also available in rifles and these may be permissible for vermin or fox or even small deer. So I have vermin and AOLQ on my ticket for .357 and load a 1250 ft-lb load for muntjac.
This interim guidance doesn’t really say anything new in term of fox or vermin and is definitely confused with the law on expanding ammunition. I hope they sort it soon as this can’t be the finished article!
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
A 357 being used in rifle is not a handgun calibre but be classed as a rifle calibre and the missiles are rifle missiles
In terms of General Guidance on shooting Quarry - note the bits I have highlighted in RED
13.9 A certificate holder may shoot any quarry that is lawful (where they are authorised to shoot). Whilst guidance is provided, it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that any excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition (which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions imposed on the individual’s firearm certificate.
And re Fox and Vermin, the guidance does admit that the term Vermin is not defined in law.
13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests or vermin, they are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and therefore can only be shot under the relevant general licence. It is important to note that animals such as deer, wild boar etc are not viewed as vermin.
And as regards calibres suitable for Fox it says
13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre.
.22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes.
So in other words if you want to shoot a Fox with a .17 HM2 there is nothing in law on firearms to prevent you from doing so - it is up to you to ensure that you make a quick and humane kill. Also nothing in law to say that you cannot shoot a Fox with your 7x65r, 30-06 or 375 H&H.
There’s never been anything in law to stop you using an HM2 or an FAC air rifle for that matter, only legislation prevent intentionally causing suffering, I don’t see what you are saying has changed?A 357 being used in rifle is not a handgun calibre but be classed as a rifle calibre and the missiles are rifle missiles
In terms of General Guidance on shooting Quarry - note the bits I have highlighted in RED
13.9 A certificate holder may shoot any quarry that is lawful (where they are authorised to shoot). Whilst guidance is provided, it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that any excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition (which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions imposed on the individual’s firearm certificate.
And re Fox and Vermin, the guidance does admit that the term Vermin is not defined in law.
13.19 The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport. These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel, brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such as rook and crow. Whilst species including wood pigeon and corvids are regarded as pests or vermin, they are protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, and therefore can only be shot under the relevant general licence. It is important to note that animals such as deer, wild boar etc are not viewed as vermin.
And as regards calibres suitable for Fox it says
13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre.
.22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes.
So in other words if you want to shoot a Fox with a .17 HM2 there is nothing in law on firearms to prevent you from doing so - it is up to you to ensure that you make a quick and humane kill. Also nothing in law to say that you cannot shoot a Fox with your 7x65r, 30-06 or 375 H&H.
Virtually everything it says there for fox was the same in the 2016 guidance. The part about initial ‘good reason’ that you have highlighted hasn’t hasn’t changed, I quoted it earlier in the year when debating getting my .308 conditioned for deer. We’re you familiar with the old guidance?
As for the .357, no they are handgun bullets for self defence, it says so on both the packaging and the manufacturer’s website, as do the loaded factory rounds that I possess.
Crow Man
Well-Known Member
13.18 ‘Yes’ indicates that the calibre is suitable for the purpose, and pursuit of such quarry would normally be a “good reason” to possess such a rifle. ‘No’ indicates that the calibre and muzzle energy is unsuitable, unlawful or inhumane, and pursuit of such a quarry would not therefore be a “good reason” to possess such a rifle.
@Heym SR20 you are saying people should make themselves familiar with this latest guidance but nothing has really changed, were you yourself not familiar with it before?
Taken from the 2016 guidance (downloaded 2018)
13.9
shoot). Whilst guidance is provided, it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting
community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry
is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing
authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been
established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be
demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not
underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable
of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that any
excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition
(which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should
be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to
do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions
imposed on the individual’s firearm certificate.
13.19
The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport.
These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and
hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause
damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,
brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such
as rook and crow.
Fox
13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for
the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220
Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available.
In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use
one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or
6.5mm (.264) calibre.
.22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used
against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short
range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around
farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are
shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill.
Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding
ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes.
Those involved in shooting foxes will normally be authorised to possess up to 250 rounds,
but consideration should be given to each shooter’s individual circumstances, particularly
where re-loaders are acquiring missiles. See also paragraph 13.9 on allowing the applicant
flexibility to reasonably shoot other species on named land.
13.26 It is desirable that new applicants should have some previous experience of the safe
use of firearms before using such rifles. Experience is neither cartridge nor ammunition
type exclusive. It may include the shooting of any quarry species. The aspect that police
are looking to be satisfied about is the competency of the applicant to take a safe shot
every time. The shooting of any quarry requires a safe backstop for the shot, and such
experience is transferable between quarry species.
Taken from the 2016 guidance (downloaded 2018)
13.9
shoot). Whilst guidance is provided, it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting
community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry
is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing
authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been
established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be
demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not
underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable
of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that any
excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition
(which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should
be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to
do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions
imposed on the individual’s firearm certificate.
13.19
The term “game” covers certain birds and animals that may be shot for food and sport.
These include pheasant, partridge, grouse, ptarmigan and ground game (rabbits and
hares). The term “vermin” is not defined in law, but it may include species that cause
damage to crops, game, livestock or property such as fox, rabbit, mink, stoat, weasel,
brown rat, and grey squirrel; as well as some birds, such as wood pigeon and corvids such
as rook and crow.
Fox
13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for
the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220
Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available.
In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use
one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or
6.5mm (.264) calibre.
.22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used
against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short
range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around
farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are
shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill.
Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding
ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes.
Those involved in shooting foxes will normally be authorised to possess up to 250 rounds,
but consideration should be given to each shooter’s individual circumstances, particularly
where re-loaders are acquiring missiles. See also paragraph 13.9 on allowing the applicant
flexibility to reasonably shoot other species on named land.
13.26 It is desirable that new applicants should have some previous experience of the safe
use of firearms before using such rifles. Experience is neither cartridge nor ammunition
type exclusive. It may include the shooting of any quarry species. The aspect that police
are looking to be satisfied about is the competency of the applicant to take a safe shot
every time. The shooting of any quarry requires a safe backstop for the shot, and such
experience is transferable between quarry species.
You are right, I was only going by the introduction on the page on the table, again this is exactly the same as the 2016 guidance, careful what you wish for though as having .204 as a yes for vermin means it is easier to get one and you should easily then get AOLQ for fox.
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Crow Man
Well-Known Member
I have owned a .204 since 2006, when I initially requested the calibre and grave the good reason as Fox the FEO said he wasn’t familiar with the calibre and didn’t think it was suitable. When I supplied him with the ballistic figures for the round he changed his mind. Up to the last renewal both my .204 were conditioned for Fox and Any Lawful Quarry.
The good reason for both .204’s has always been Fox.
Renewed in June this year my one and only condition for .17 HMR .17Hornet .22Lr and .204 Ruger is,
QUARRY - ANY LAWFUL QUARRY - (EXPERIENCED OPEN)
The firearm and ammunition to which this certificate refers shall be used for shooting lawful quarry and for zeroing - practise on ranges, or land which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.
Yes .204 wasn’t on the 2012 guidance but was added to the 2016 table, just in the wrong place. There’s no doubt if WMR is suitable for fox at 350 ft-lb then .204 certainly is
Crow Man
Well-Known Member
The thing is now, if an inexperienced FEO is going off this table any request for .204 with a good reason as Fox would be refused.
I think, as you found in 2006, it would be fairly easy to show it exceeds the muzzle energy of many of those listed for fox and get the condition.The thing is now, if an inexperienced FEO is going off this table any request for .204 with a good reason as Fox would be refused.
This entire thread is a waste of time and energy because the document you are all arguing about is an interim document which does not include any of the legislative changes since 2016 and is due to be replaced by a new and completely revised document which does includes all the legislative changes since 2016.
That new document is due to be published before the end of the year.
Wait until the new document appears, then READ IT inits entirety before making any comments about it
Cheers
Bruce
That new document is due to be published before the end of the year.
Wait until the new document appears, then READ IT inits entirety before making any comments about it
Cheers
Bruce
