New rifle, new calibre and a variation.

[25 Sharps]

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Aye, you’re right. However, if you ask for a variation for a rifle to shoot boar from a tower or otherwise, your FEO will likely refer you to the best practice guidance I attached.
It’ll be difficult to argue that 6.5 or 223 will do the job when best practice says minimum .270.
Here’s an extract from the response to my variation request. It’s definitely worth considering if you’re spending money on new kit -

Dear Mr ……….

I am writing with regards to your Variation application you recently submitted. I am working through your application and can see that you have requested a few changes to your Conditions, particularly with regards to Wild Boar. Unfortunately, we do not have a specific Condition solely encompassing just Wild Boar, however I have done some research, and it seems currently Wild Boar have no official status or restrictions, they will come under your General Condition as Lawful Quarry. There is however guidance for shooting ( see link) and please also be aware that your .270 is the minimum calibre needed for use with Wild Boar.

Just to make you aware, currently, no course is needed but I wouldn’t be surprised if this was to change in the future and the same could be said about Boars Status and Restrictions too.

Hope that helps.

Nope, doesn’t help at all . What your FEO says is not the be all and end all.

If your FEO had to research whether there’s a minimum for boar he either hasn’t been on the job long or doesn’t really have a clue, this is further evidenced by his last sentence. No course is needed for any quarry currently, other than shooting badgers under licence on a cull.

FWIW Wilts will not condition rifles for boar either, deer and AOLQ will cover it. I have shot 2 boar, both over bait, both with a creedmoor and both dead on the spot. Incidentally FEOs advice was you can just use one of your deer rifles, at that time both 6.5s.

I’ve never had too much issue finding my way around variations to be fair, probably hold more deer rifles than most, as I like shooting different rifles. Just learn the licensing guidance inside out and beat them at their own game - if they won’t give you a .270 for boar then say you want it for fallow and refer to the guidance that states .270 and above is seen as the minimum for large deer .

Ps I’d go for a Howa out of your choices owning both Howa and Bergara .

 

[Ben_4321]

I agonised about my "big" rifle for months but ultimately went with a Tikka T3x in .308 (I went with the wood stock as I didn't like the plastic one).

There is a reason the T3x is so popular - it's accurate, reliable and they doesn't cost the earth. They are a step up from the cheaper end of the market but should last you a lifetime. Loads of parts are available if you want to add or change bits and if you did ever have an issue with it the warrantee (2+1 years) should be solid and most gunsmiths will know them inside out. Would have no issue buying second-hand if I could see it first. After owning mine for 2 years or so, the only thing I would change is for it to have a 3 stage safety like my Sauer 100.

After a lot of research I decided that the 308 will deal with anything in the UK and factory ammunition is easy to get hold of across loads of different brands, types alongside a bunch of copper options so you can experiment and find one that suits you and your rifle. FAO should also be comfortable with this calibre as it is so popular in the UK. It's not the fastest, flattest or fanciest calibre but it does do the job very well for most people's experience of deer stalking. Have a few friends who shoot other less common calibres like 7x57 and they do have difficulty finding ammo at most dealers.

Ultimately you will get a load of different options and suggestion on here which would work really well - but I took the "tired and tested" route to save any potential hassle down the line and has worked well for me.

 

[tackb]

It’s a bit niche but it was fantastic to shoot! If I had a spare 2.2K blabs and a slot I’d love one -very capable wee rifle

i loved my 308 scout sadly though it would just never shoot consistently or i would still have it

 

[norsk]

From the three choices you listed,I would buy the Howa. I would do so because they represent excellent value for money without cutting any corners.

My second choice would be the Bergara only because of the huge amount of after market bits you can buy,if that's the road you wish to take. Bergara being a Rem 700 copy.

I would forget the Mauser M18. It's a cheaply produced gun which could be summed up with the old phrase " Fur coat,no knickers".

 

[co’den]

Nope, doesn’t help at all . What your FEO says is not the be all and end all.

If your FEO had to research whether there’s a minimum for boar he either hasn’t been on the job long or doesn’t really have a clue, this is further evidenced by his last sentence. No course is needed for any quarry currently, other than shooting badgers under licence on a cull.

FWIW Wilts will not condition rifles for boar either, deer and AOLQ will cover it. I have shot 2 boar, both over bait, both with a creedmoor and both dead on the spot. Incidentally FEOs advice was you can just use one of your deer rifles, at that time both 6.5s.

I’ve never had too much issue finding my way around variations to be fair, probably hold more deer rifles than most, as I like shooting different rifles. Just learn the licensing guidance inside out and beat them at their own game - if they won’t give you a .270 for boar then say you want it for fallow and refer to the guidance that states .270 and above is seen as the minimum for large deer .

Ps I’d go for a Howa out of your choices owning both Howa and Bergara .

Really? You’re using a calibre smaller than is recommended in best practice but that’s OK as you know how to pervert the system? Good for you mate. Crack on.

I’m just the messenger. All I asked my FEO for was to change the conditions on my target rifles to include ALQ and confirm that it also covers boar. That was his answer. I think it’s reasonable that he did his due diligence and didn’t just say, yea, use whatever you got.

 

[25 Sharps]

Really? You’re using a calibre smaller than is recommended in best practice but that’s OK as you know how to pervert the system? Good for you mate. Crack on.

I’m just the messenger. All I asked my FEO for was to change the conditions on my target rifles to include ALQ and confirm that it also covers boar. That was his answer. I think it’s reasonable that he did his due diligence and didn’t just say, yea, use whatever you got.

No one is perverting the system buddy, that’s the whole point of the AOLQ condition, as touched on in your FEO’s response. It is quite normal to shoot boar in the brain with calibres smaller then .270. Provided you’re not intentionally causing suffering to the animal no law is broken. Did you miss the part where my FEO recommended I used my 6.5?

.270 would be sensible if shoulder shooting boar, particularly if you’re on the ground with them!

Your FEO showed ignorance which is quite common.

No need to get your nickers in a twist about someone doing something that is perfectly legal and humane .

 

[co’den]

No one is perverting the system buddy, that’s the whole point of the AOLQ condition, as touched on in your FEO’s response. It is quite normal to shoot boar in the brain with calibres smaller then .270. Provided you’re not intentionally causing suffering to the animal no law is broken. Did you miss the part where my FEO recommended I used my 6.5?

.270 would be sensible if shoulder shooting boar, particularly if you’re on the ground with them!

Your FEO showed ignorance which is quite common.

No need to get your nickers in a twist about someone doing something that is perfectly legal and humane .

Alright flower.

 

[25 Sharps]

Greetings all! I'm planning on putting in my first variation shortly but I'm having to make decisions on rifles and calibres. Not a bad problem to have, but I'm after some input.

Firstly, I want to do a one for one. I have a Parker Hale in .243 but it's not screw cut. I have found that in the dead of night the muzzle flash is as bright as the sun and it sounds like a cannon going off. As such, I'd like something I can put a moderator on without invoking the wrath of the Parker Hale fan club! I've had a look at some rifles and I think it's going to be a toss up between a Bergara B14, Howa 1500 or Mauser M18. I'm hoping to hear from people who own/have used these particular rifles to figure out which to get. They all felt nice to hold and I did examine the fore end of the Howa to check for flex which was there but needed quite a bit of force to get it to move, so I imagine it will be fine? The rifle will be used for deer (roe) and foxes.

The second rifle will be a new calibre. I want to do some trips to The Forest of Dean after boar and also use it for bigger (fallow) deer. I'm thinking a .30 of some description. I'm going to hand load so ammunition availability isn't too much of a problem but I was thinking .308 or 30-06. .308 seems very popular compared to 30-06. In fact there were two rifles listed on Guntrader within 100 miles and I saw them both sat next to each other in the same rack! It seems there isn't much in it performance wise until heavier bullets are used but reading about both calibres has not helped me come to a decision. Which of these would be best for boar and deer, or is there another calibre that does it better? I'm not set on a .30 per say but it seems to be the best choice for both types of quarry. I will stand correction though!

Lastly, I have an unused moderator slot for the .243. When I do the variation will this stay or will I need to ask for it again? In fact would it just be best to phone the firearms folk?

I think that's all for the minute. I'm going back to the shop tomorrow with the intention of putting a deposit on a .243 then getting the paperwork sent off. I'm a bit reluctant to put a deposit on something else as I may not get it granted.

Thanks in advance!

Howa, 308 for large deer and AOLQ - job done.

30-06 will buy you a couple of hundred FPS but the availability of .308 rifles and ammunition trumps it.

Or you could go all out and get a 300 PRC

 

[Lateral]

Not denying the speed, but questioning the pressure or at least indicating to new reloaders that the speed is achievable when you don’t actually know the pressure.

Those would be good speeds with a creedmoor with its additional 10% capacity, let alone the smaller x47 cartridge.

Firstly, the 6.5CM tends to use a circa 140g bullet, & as I mentioned I'm using the 143g ELD-X, and a 129g ABLR, or 130g Sierra, so somewhat lighter. Also, My cases average 52g H2O for the CM, & 49.6g H20 for the 6.5x47, so maybe closer than expected ?

There are zero signs of pressure to the primer, or witness marks from the extractor, and, the loads are below Pmax with the data entered into Quickload, so I'm more than comfortable they are safe.

 

[25 Sharps]

Firstly, the 6.5CM tends to use a circa 140g bullet, & as I mentioned I'm using the 143g ELD-X, and a 129g ABLR, or 130g Sierra, so somewhat lighter. Also, My cases average 52g H2O for the CM, & 49.6g H20 for the 6.5x47, so maybe closer than expected ?

There are zero signs of pressure to the primer, or witness marks from the extractor, and, the loads are below Pmax with the data entered into Quickload, so I'm more than comfortable they are safe.

The creedmoor uses whichever bullet you load into it, plenty of 120 gr factory loads out there and I personally used to use the 129 gr ABLR before going to 120 gr lead free and then consigning the creedmoor to target use only.

Both Pmax and Quickload are simulators and come with warnings that they shouldn’t be relied upon for actual pressures.

No doubt you’re getting zero pressure signs, you are experienced enough not to use a load with any pressure signs. My point was, someone new to reloading without the experience to spot pressure signs may chase your very top end velocity, perhaps with a shorter barrel, and end up causing themself a mischief.

 

[JTO]

7mm-08 gets my vote

I have had a 7mm-08 itch and had one on order, but Tikka discontinued the stainless supervarmint.
I had a 7mm/284 slot so bought a .284W that I knew was good.
Having a Steyr SSG, I cannot imagine anything more accurate with factory ammo, though.

 

[7Miller]

I have had a 7mm-08 itch and had one on order, but Tikka discontinued the stainless supervarmint.
I had a 7mm/284 slot so bought a .284W that I knew was good.
Having a Steyr SSG, I cannot imagine anything more accurate with factory ammo, though.

I could have had the t3x super varmint, the one with tungsten cerekoted barrel but it was a 9 month wait! So got one made by Mike Norris in the end. Still in proof house but won't be long and I can start my load development and then get out and enjoy it!

 

[JTO]

I could have had the t3x super varmint, the one with tungsten cerekoted barrel but it was a 9 month wait! So got one made by Mike Norris in the end. Still in proof house but won't be long and I can start my load development and then get out and enjoy it!

From what I have read, a 7mm-08 would be better than a .308 at 1000 yrds, still supersonic with 162gr bullets at that range.

 

[Lateral]

The creedmoor uses whichever bullet you load into it, plenty of 120 gr factory loads out there and I personally used to use the 129 gr ABLR before going to 120 gr lead free and then consigning the creedmoor to target use only.

Both Pmax and Quickload are simulators and come with warnings that they shouldn’t be relied upon for actual pressures.

No doubt you’re getting zero pressure signs, you are experienced enough not to use a load with any pressure signs. My point was, someone new to reloading without the experience to spot pressure signs may chase your very top end velocity, perhaps with a shorter barrel, and end up causing themself a mischief.

Accepted, but someone without experience would be asking what powder, what OAL, & what primer ?

 

[25 Sharps]

Accepted, but someone without experience would be asking what powder, what OAL, & what primer ?

The OP only started reloading at the end of September 2024…..

 

[Gorgon]

There's been a lot of reading and Googling to do and to be honest the looking stuff up has left me more undecided than I was before!

There appears to be a lot of love for 6.5mm in various formats but my concern is with the recommended minimum calibre. I know it isn't the law but if .270 is the minimum recommended calibre and the 6.5 equates to .260 would I even get it conditioned for boar? I'm unsure if Devon and Cornwall actually put boar on the certificate or AOLQ but if my reason is for shooting boar I'd have thought they would go with the guidance? I don't actually know this for sure but I also don't know what would happen if I asked for the "wrong" calibre. I know the size of the case matters when it comes to actual power but I think they'd go with what is deemed to be best practice.

The 7mm08 seems like it could be quite good as an all rounder but finding one nearby seems to be difficult! I suppose any gun shop could order whatever I want though so it's not really a massive issue but I do like to pick up whatever I'm buying beforehand. That said, it's probably going to be more or less identical to a .308. Speaking of which, .308 is available off the shelf in pretty much every guise imaginable so I think that may play a part in the selection. Why is nothing ever straightforward?!

As for the choice of rifles the Howa seems to be the winner so I suspect that's the route I'll go down. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of negative reviews other than the Houge stock being a bit bendy but as long as I can conduct a bend test before buying it it should be alright?

 

[25 Sharps]

There's been a lot of reading and Googling to do and to be honest the looking stuff up has left me more undecided than I was before!

There appears to be a lot of love for 6.5mm in various formats but my concern is with the recommended minimum calibre. I know it isn't the law but if .270 is the minimum recommended calibre and the 6.5 equates to .260 would I even get it conditioned for boar? I'm unsure if Devon and Cornwall actually put boar on the certificate or AOLQ but if my reason is for shooting boar I'd have thought they would go with the guidance? I don't actually know this for sure but I also don't know what would happen if I asked for the "wrong" calibre. I know the size of the case matters when it comes to actual power but I think they'd go with what is deemed to be best practice.

The 7mm08 seems like it could be quite good as an all rounder but finding one nearby seems to be difficult! I suppose any gun shop could order whatever I want though so it's not really a massive issue but I do like to pick up whatever I'm buying beforehand. That said, it's probably going to be more or less identical to a .308. Speaking of which, .308 is available off the shelf in pretty much every guise imaginable so I think that may play a part in the selection. Why is nothing ever straightforward?!

As for the choice of rifles the Howa seems to be the winner so I suspect that's the route I'll go down. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of negative reviews other than the Houge stock being a bit bendy but as long as I can conduct a bend test before buying it it should be alright?

You don’t need it conditioned for boar, get it for deer and AOLQ. In your situation I’d go .308 and say you want it for fallow and other large deer.

The hogue stocks aren’t great on a bipod, especially if you load it, but off of sticks the one I had was fine. With the howa there are lots of after market stocks you can upgrade to at a later date, I have a Bell and Carlson on mine which I really like and it has a aluminium bedding block which aids accuracy, can be had for £150-200.00 second hand.

 

[Lateral]

The OP only started reloading at the end of September 2024…..

Yes, and I have more confidence in his ability to be sensible, and stay safe, than you clearly do !

And for the record, isn't the be all, and end all.................Just look at Hornady's 6.5CM FACTORY ammunition velocity claim ! Makes most manufacturers load data look positively lame !

6.5CM Hornady 129g Superformance

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes, and I have more confidence in his ability to be sensible, and stay safe, than you clearly do !

And for the record, isn't the be all, and end all.................Just look at Hornady's 6.5CM FACTORY ammunition velocity claim ! Makes most manufacturers load data look positively lame !

6.5CM Hornady 129g Superformance

Also states it’s 100-200 fps faster than standard ammunition.

 

[Lateral]

Also states it’s 100-200 fps faster than standard ammunition.

Good grief what is YOUR PROBLEM ? Hand loaded ammunition ISN'T STANDARD ammunition either !

People handload to improve accuracy, over factory, & aren't adverse to gaining velocity, without having to test every factory offering on the market