not sure if this is a wind up
- Thread starter bally
- Start date
Siggy
Well-Known Member
I needed to get a thermal for work, so I've started to use it while stalking. The management plan on my perm is to protect coppice so it is a numbers game and the fallow are very flighty. TI is a very effective tool, but it ain't the same stalking experience, it turns stalking into a video game IMO - I spent enough time looking at screens in my previous job,so using a TI is taking the fun out it. On the plus side I'm getting to see and watch deer that are impossible to see with binoculars, so I am learning were the deer are and how they move about.
Yep, I quite agree. And when taking your driving test you should be tested on using semaphore direction indicators, getting steam up in the boiler and tiller steering. The fact you'll never use them and wouldn't go out if you had to is irrelevant, you should be tested on all these outdated items 
Personally, if a scope packed up on one of my rifles I wouldn't go out until it was replaced. And yes, I do have thermal, and it's the best thing since bino's because it's just the latest version of them.
Personally, if a scope packed up on one of my rifles I wouldn't go out until it was replaced. And yes, I do have thermal, and it's the best thing since bino's because it's just the latest version of them.
Deer Stalking practiced by most is a sport and as such, personally I would never use Thermal unless shooting with a night licence on a heavy cull.
Ok everybody is having fun talking about the various gadgets we use (scopes,bino's etc) but IMHO shooting over open sights should be part of any test/certificate or basic start to stalking.
That would sort a few out! If you can't hit a 6" bull three times at 100 yds on the bounce with iron sights, you shouldn't be out there anyway.
Found my tin helmet last night, let the verbal commence.
Yep, I quite agree. And when taking your driving test you should be tested on using semaphore direction indicators, getting steam up in the boiler and tiller steering. The fact you'll never use them and wouldn't go out if you had to is irrelevant, you should be tested on all these outdated items
Personally, if a scope packed up on one of my rifles I wouldn't go out until it was replaced. And yes, I do have thermal, and it's the best thing since bino's because it's just the latest version of them.
Bloody hell Ar kid av they stopped using them indicators, I quite enjoy getting the steam up in my "Old Boiler", and I think she does too.
Ray7756
Well-Known Member
Never having used thermal I cant really comment on it but, the guy has lots of ground that he controls deer over, and the way I look at it is its his grounds , so its his rules, if you get a permision and the owner gives you a set of rules ,you stick to them, its that simple, if you dont agree with the rules dont take the ground
Cheers
Ray
Cheers
Ray
Glen Cadwallader
Well-Known Member
Hi all,
I'm the MD of said Company.
Nice to see well balanced discussions on the matter.
We have two sides to our business, the first being the Sport Stalking side and the other being the Deer Control side.
Many of you may not be familiar with the situation in the areas we work, the ground is very different to that elsewhere in the UK.
Most of our business is conducted in Lochaber & The Highlands, ground types vary from Mountainous to very boggy flat "flow"
So the Sporting side we keep separate, this is where we buy or lease land which is generally far outside the budget of most Recreational Stalkers and we then sub let the ground by way of a syndicate type arrangement.
The other side is where we are hired to control Deer in either Forestry or Natural regeneration sites, additionally we carry out some work for Farmers on marginal land who suffer heavy Deer damage generally at night.
The woodland is generally always very thick commercial planting operating a rotational system of felling, planting and restocking.
Very often our sites are hazardous & remote, it is not uncommon for us to be operating 15 miles from the nearest Tarmac road without any phone signal and in the middle of the night.
So that gives an idea of the type of work we carry out.
Posts like these often throw up concerns about Night shooting, so I can try to answer that for all.
We carry out night shooting only in areas of Forestry Replanting, Natural Heritage Regeneration or on Farm Crops/Grazings.
Night licenses are used concurrently with traditional stalking methods, we must have a valid reason for applying for a night license and we must prove to SNH that we have a genuine reason for it, they inspect the sites, make their own enquiries and can and do accompany controllers on site.
So generally speaking we only obtain them on Replanting sites where huge investment has gone in, the Deer have Been shot as much as possible by day and have gone nocturnal.
Having shot thousands of Deer by day & by night I can assure you all that it's not just as easy as it may sound, once Deer have been shot at just once in the spot light they are forever more wary of it, the second they see it they are running after that. Yes you get the easy ones quite quickly but others can elude you for months or years.
A few years back we introduced the use of thermal imaging as an aid to control on restock sites, we use it extensively to make what we do more successful, it does aid with lamp shy Deer because we can locate them, get closer to them and save vital seconds before we switch on any lights to shoot, it can aid with finding shot Deer and we also use it for surveying properties for Forestry companies for a variety of reasons.
Therfore we understand the benefits of it, the success it can give and we have concluded that on our leases to syndicate members all of which are termed as "Sporting" we shall place a blanket ban on the use of thermal imaging.
This has been widely appreciated by all of our syndicate members of which there are many, it makes stalking fair on the Deer, it does not give any syndicate member an advantage over any other and they all understand this because they love Deer, they are there to enjoy hunting Deer in their natural environment and for the love of being allowed out on a piece of ground alone, unaccompanied with a rifle to shoot.
We have hundreds of thousands of acres of land and are at the forefront of affordable stalking for all and it is with that in mind the decision was taken and will stand, I expect other large scale land managers will quickly follow our lead and indeed have been in meetings to that effect.
Finally, it does occasionally occur that we take on Deer control "leases" rather than contracts, these are where we actually pay to shoot the Deer but it is on the basis that we must control the deer on the restock areas.
We can then let some off as sporting but must continue to oversee and indeed shoot the Deer to a level where the landowner owners interests are protected, this can cause problems where the syndicate members think we are shooting all the Deer by night but honesty is the best policy in these cases and it comes down to this, if I get emails from Foresters with pictures of Deer browse on young trees it is clear to me that efforts are not being made by syndicate members to keep the deer off sensitive areas, I explain the terms at the start, I explain when there is Forestry complaints, I tell them if it's not sorted I will sort and in the end, almost always I end up shooting the problem Deer myself. I've had recent incidences of Syndicate members not attending sites for months on end because stags have not been in hard horn etc and the resultant Tree damage is devastating to the crop.
Then syndicate members turn up in the rut by which time the stags have departed to rut elsewhere, it's then all my fault.
Much work goes on in order to save deer and prevent shooting such as visiting sites whilst hinds are out of season and physically putting them off the site in order to try and save them for the syndicate's in season, at the end of the day we are here to preserve deer, manage them for the future and to try and keep all stakeholders happy but there is one thing which all can be assured of and that is we are hugely successful for a reason and if anyone is not happy being on our team then they will quickly be moved on.
I'm the MD of said Company.
Nice to see well balanced discussions on the matter.
We have two sides to our business, the first being the Sport Stalking side and the other being the Deer Control side.
Many of you may not be familiar with the situation in the areas we work, the ground is very different to that elsewhere in the UK.
Most of our business is conducted in Lochaber & The Highlands, ground types vary from Mountainous to very boggy flat "flow"
So the Sporting side we keep separate, this is where we buy or lease land which is generally far outside the budget of most Recreational Stalkers and we then sub let the ground by way of a syndicate type arrangement.
The other side is where we are hired to control Deer in either Forestry or Natural regeneration sites, additionally we carry out some work for Farmers on marginal land who suffer heavy Deer damage generally at night.
The woodland is generally always very thick commercial planting operating a rotational system of felling, planting and restocking.
Very often our sites are hazardous & remote, it is not uncommon for us to be operating 15 miles from the nearest Tarmac road without any phone signal and in the middle of the night.
So that gives an idea of the type of work we carry out.
Posts like these often throw up concerns about Night shooting, so I can try to answer that for all.
We carry out night shooting only in areas of Forestry Replanting, Natural Heritage Regeneration or on Farm Crops/Grazings.
Night licenses are used concurrently with traditional stalking methods, we must have a valid reason for applying for a night license and we must prove to SNH that we have a genuine reason for it, they inspect the sites, make their own enquiries and can and do accompany controllers on site.
So generally speaking we only obtain them on Replanting sites where huge investment has gone in, the Deer have Been shot as much as possible by day and have gone nocturnal.
Having shot thousands of Deer by day & by night I can assure you all that it's not just as easy as it may sound, once Deer have been shot at just once in the spot light they are forever more wary of it, the second they see it they are running after that. Yes you get the easy ones quite quickly but others can elude you for months or years.
A few years back we introduced the use of thermal imaging as an aid to control on restock sites, we use it extensively to make what we do more successful, it does aid with lamp shy Deer because we can locate them, get closer to them and save vital seconds before we switch on any lights to shoot, it can aid with finding shot Deer and we also use it for surveying properties for Forestry companies for a variety of reasons.
Therfore we understand the benefits of it, the success it can give and we have concluded that on our leases to syndicate members all of which are termed as "Sporting" we shall place a blanket ban on the use of thermal imaging.
This has been widely appreciated by all of our syndicate members of which there are many, it makes stalking fair on the Deer, it does not give any syndicate member an advantage over any other and they all understand this because they love Deer, they are there to enjoy hunting Deer in their natural environment and for the love of being allowed out on a piece of ground alone, unaccompanied with a rifle to shoot.
We have hundreds of thousands of acres of land and are at the forefront of affordable stalking for all and it is with that in mind the decision was taken and will stand, I expect other large scale land managers will quickly follow our lead and indeed have been in meetings to that effect.
Finally, it does occasionally occur that we take on Deer control "leases" rather than contracts, these are where we actually pay to shoot the Deer but it is on the basis that we must control the deer on the restock areas.
We can then let some off as sporting but must continue to oversee and indeed shoot the Deer to a level where the landowner owners interests are protected, this can cause problems where the syndicate members think we are shooting all the Deer by night but honesty is the best policy in these cases and it comes down to this, if I get emails from Foresters with pictures of Deer browse on young trees it is clear to me that efforts are not being made by syndicate members to keep the deer off sensitive areas, I explain the terms at the start, I explain when there is Forestry complaints, I tell them if it's not sorted I will sort and in the end, almost always I end up shooting the problem Deer myself. I've had recent incidences of Syndicate members not attending sites for months on end because stags have not been in hard horn etc and the resultant Tree damage is devastating to the crop.
Then syndicate members turn up in the rut by which time the stags have departed to rut elsewhere, it's then all my fault.
Much work goes on in order to save deer and prevent shooting such as visiting sites whilst hinds are out of season and physically putting them off the site in order to try and save them for the syndicate's in season, at the end of the day we are here to preserve deer, manage them for the future and to try and keep all stakeholders happy but there is one thing which all can be assured of and that is we are hugely successful for a reason and if anyone is not happy being on our team then they will quickly be moved on.
As long as its clear to people and the reasons justified so succinctly as above people can then make their choice. I am of the opinion that it is up to the individual (as long as no rules or laws are broken) as to methods and in this case technology that are used, more so if it is a hobby as it is there time to enjoy.
Erik Hamburger
Well-Known Member
Bows and arrows perhaps!
Still too modern and VERY unsporting, IMHO. The only real Sport is to be had by running after the deer and driving them over a cliff.
are they on the shelf with the tartan paint and left handed screwdrivers
Most folk would get sick of changing the Radiator in the truck.
Ranger22
Well-Known Member
yep, right next to the long stands
kenbro
Well-Known Member
Still waiting for the long stands to come in plenty spirit level bubbles tho
thermal/night vision and quad bikes,all on the poachers wish list.the deer in my area are being devasted by the use of all these bits of kit.all of this modern technology should have been very strictly licensed. now all and sundry have them..a very sad day for uk wild life.only my opinion of course.
Commission have a job to do reducing numbers in order to protect tree crops planted at the tax payers expense. It's in the public interest to do this a efficiently as possible - find deer quickly, shoot, onto the next = efficient.
Aye, if it's brown it's down ( Not my quote FC Head ranger). If it's all at the Tax payers expense, like all gov't dept's they are overstaffed and too bureaucratic. It should be very extensively Rationalised (to use an "In" word).
I work in the civil service and agree it is VERY bureaucratic, but do you know why? Well I'll tell you why - its because every minute thing we do has to be auditable and accountable. MP's asks questions, Joe public asks questions, press and the pubic demand answers to all the weirdest of things and complain and/or submit FOI requests if they don't get the answers that suit them.
And that's before we talk about managing public land - Forests etc. where Heath and Safety HAS to be taken to the Nth degree because if there is an incident the Press absolutely crucify them. Just imagine if there was an incident where a stalking leaseholder injured a member of the public and it was considered that FC hadn't taken sufficient steps to vet them? The Minister in charge gets it in the neck, passes it down the line and so the cycle continues.
Left to get on with our jobs their would no doubt be some stuff not right, bad apples etc, but no more so than any private business. So it's not the Civil Servants fault - it's yours Mr J Public for being so demanding.
All that mean a vastly disproportionate amount of a civil servant time is sent recording and justifying what they do, rather than getting on with the job.
deerpath
Well-Known Member
Night shooting is not sport. Period. It's deer control by the Scottish government i.e SNP. There is no night / out of season licence in England available and long may it last.
How funny the new land tax is £2 per hectare hill ground, £4 per arable AND £5 for foresrtry. FFS.
How funny the new land tax is £2 per hectare hill ground, £4 per arable AND £5 for foresrtry. FFS.
Quite a few night shooting licences being issued in England now.
Yeap, don't think anyone is claiming it as sport - its quite openly and honestly crop protection. Not an SNP fan but night licences have been in existence since before they were in power.
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