NPCC firearms lead visits BASC

[Conor O'Gorman]

Debbie Tedds, the chief constable of Warwickshire Police and chair of the Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group on the National Police Chiefs’ Council visited BASC’s head office at Marford Mill to discuss firearms licensing and firearms law.

NPCC firearms lead visits BASC

Chief constable Debbie Tedds, chair of FELWG on the National Police Chiefs’ Council, met with BASC to discuss firearms law and licensing.

basc.org.uk

 

[Selous]

@Conor O'Gorman -Can you give any more details what was discussed?

 

[Liveonce]

did you ask why the FELWG meeting minutes look to be no longer published ?

 

[Dalua]

I still worry that BASC is at risk of feeling flattered by attention received from FELWG, Home Office etc: and that this causes them to think that those bodies mean the shooting community anything other than harm; and further, that BASC becomes involved in supporting things that look superficially OK, but in fact are very far from OK. Perhaps a new motto should be 'I fear the Police and Home Office even (or perhaps especially) when they are bearing gifts.'

As an aside, the Police present have dressed as if they are there on business.

 

[Greenmist]

Hopefully the file your colleagues have with all the licensing improvement suggestions was passed onto CC Tedds

 

[timbrayford]

Hopefully the proposed removal of sound moderators from firearms controls is merely a first step towards getting rid of the more bureaucratic elements of S1 controls in favour of the more streamlined S2 ones, and dispensing with the out dated paper based system in favour of real time online recording?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

There’s a limited amount that can be said about the content of the meeting, because further work arises, but we will issue the details as soon as we can. This was the first visit of the of CC Tedds to BASC in the more than two years she has been Chair of FELWG. The meeting was frank and constructive, with all the issues mentioned and more being raised by BASC.

 

[Scallopdiver]

No harm but i got into a silly bit of bother testing a shotgun after cleaning,psni stopped me and tried to do me for armed trespass,criminal damage etc
I rang my basc rep and he was worse than useless!
I asked him to recommend a solicitor,he said they couldnt do that
I asked him what my best course of action would be,he couldnt do that
The police tried everything to get me done,they of course took my guns
Due to me being allowed on the property and having tested the shotgun on an empty 5 gallon drum the best they could come up with was using a firearm out of condition ,the gun was for sporting and vermin control and apparently shooting an oil can was unlawfull!!
I had a yarn with my feo who is a very sound bloke,he said they would offer me a caution and if i wanted my guns back in the near future that was the way
So thanks to the basc and their pathetic service to their members i now have a caution on my clean for 53 year record!
Save your membership for the solicitor

 

[AGR]

Would you also be 'done' then for pattern testing I wonder.
Your treatment from the police does seem a bit harsh.

 

[nic531]

As an aside, the Police present have dressed as if they are there on business.

they are Police Officers, Not civilian FEO's so should they not be in uniform as the Police is a uniformed organisation?

 

[Dalua]

they are Police Officers, Not civilian FEO's so should they not be in uniform as the Police is a uniformed organisation?

Leaving aside the question as to whether or not police officers are civilians, I would myself be inclined when dealing in formal meetings with authority figures (especially when undertaken on behalf of others) to stick to the maxim 'If you want to be taken seriously, wear a suit.' I'd add in this case that it should probably be of a sober colour.
BASC does not in my view have a good record at this sort of quasi-negotiation. They seem to forget that the people they are dealing with are not our friends, and that they are much cleverer, more-experienced and better-supported the 'negotiation' thing than BASC: as exemplified in the 'GP reports' catastrophe.
Dressing differently alone wouldn't help with any of that, of course - but as an outward sign of an inward review of approach it would be encouraging to see.

 

[Jeff8861]

Leaving aside the question as to whether or not police officers are civilians, I would myself be inclined when dealing in formal meetings with authority figures (especially when undertaken on behalf of others) to stick to the maxim 'If you want to be taken seriously, wear a suit.' I'd add in this case that it should probably be of a sober colour.
BASC does not in my view have a good record at this sort of quasi-negotiation. They seem to forget that the people they are dealing with are not our friends, and that they are much cleverer, more-experienced and better-supported the 'negotiation' thing than BASC: as exemplified in the 'GP reports' catastrophe.
Dressing differently alone wouldn't help with any of that, of course - but as an outward sign of an inward review of approach it would be encouraging to see.

The vast majority of feo are civilians. They are classed as staff and offered a police style uniform. They have a choice wether to wear this or not depending on the force in question. It is not practicable to were a suit. Climbing into lofts and down cellars is the norm.

 

[Dalua]

The vast majority of feo are civilians. They are classed as staff and offered a police style uniform. They have a choice wether to wear this or not depending on the force in question. It is not practicable to were a suit. Climbing into lofts and down cellars is the norm.

Just for the sake of clarity, I wasn't suggesting that FEOs wear suits; nor that anyone should be classed other than as a civilian unless they are a member of the armed forces.

 

[enfieldspares]

Just for the sake of clarity, I wasn't suggesting that FEOs wear suits; nor that anyone should be classed other than as a civilian unless they are a member of the armed forces.

Correct. Taken below word for word from the Peel Principles:

To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Leaving aside the question as to whether or not police officers are civilians, I would myself be inclined when dealing in formal meetings with authority figures (especially when undertaken on behalf of others) to stick to the maxim 'If you want to be taken seriously, wear a suit.' I'd add in this case that it should probably be of a sober colour.
BASC does not in my view have a good record at this sort of quasi-negotiation. They seem to forget that the people they are dealing with are not our friends, and that they are much cleverer, more-experienced and better-supported the 'negotiation' thing than BASC: as exemplified in the 'GP reports' catastrophe.
Dressing differently alone wouldn't help with any of that, of course - but as an outward sign of an inward review of approach it would be encouraging to see.

Your view of BASC and indeed firearms law is frankly rather strange and we have discussed the policy developments around medical involvement in firearms licensing previously ad nauseum and to insinuate that BASC influenced the situation we have currently whilst at the same time insinuating that BASC has no influence whatsoever is illogical. You might reflect on that.

BASC is trying to improve firearms licensing for all of us and surely that deserves our support. Knocking BASC when they are the very ones fighting our corner is rather divisive and perhaps you could desist from doing so.

 

[bryn]

Conor.
Thanks for keeping us updated.
Bryn

 

[Dalua]

Your view of BASC and indeed firearms law is frankly rather strange and we have discussed the policy developments around medical involvement in firearms licensing previously ad nauseum and to insinuate that BASC influenced the situation we have currently whilst at the same time insinuating that BASC has no influence whatsoever is illogical. You might reflect on that.

First, I think my view of BASC is in fact less strange than you think. I've not really commented on firearms law in this thread, so I'll leave that one for now.

Second, I'm not insinuating anything at all; and yes, we have discussed that subject - though on my part it was frustration, rather than nausea, that was the result. Unless I've completely misunderstood, BASC were involved in discussions from which a proposal emerged that certificate applicants should pay for medical reports. Admittedly, at that point it would been only applicants for whom there were particular concerns who would have had to pay for specialist reports - but the notion having been established that some applicants would have to pay more than the statutory fee for the grant process, it was only a slight further step to all applicants having to pay. Had the initial bit not been allowed to go through unchallenged, be might be in a better place now.

I am certainly not suggesting that BASC has no influence. Quite the contrary: as you show us, they have the ear of some of our most powerful enemies.
I'm just saying they need to be cleverer at using the opportunities they get. Cleverer than the Police and the HO, in fact - which is quite a high bar.

Back to the original point: looking like a force to be reckoned with is not a substitute for actually being a force to be reckoned with. However, insofar as apparel and state of mind can influence each other for good or ill, it might be something to think about.

 

[Dickie]

Someone has been in post over 2 years and now meets with the voice of shooting says it all really.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

First, I think my view of BASC is in fact less strange than you think. I've not really commented on firearms law in this thread, so I'll leave that one for now.

Second, I'm not insinuating anything at all; and yes, we have discussed that subject - though on my part it was frustration, rather than nausea, that was the result. Unless I've completely misunderstood, BASC were involved in discussions from which a proposal emerged that certificate applicants should pay for medical reports. Admittedly, at that point it would been only applicants for whom there were particular concerns who would have had to pay for specialist reports - but the notion having been established that some applicants would have to pay more than the statutory fee for the grant process, it was only a slight further step to all applicants having to pay. Had the initial bit not been allowed to go through unchallenged, be might be in a better place now.

I am certainly not suggesting that BASC has no influence. Quite the contrary: as you show us, they have the ear of some of our most powerful enemies.
I'm just saying they need to be cleverer at using the opportunities they get. Cleverer than the Police and the HO, in fact - which is quite a high bar.

Back to the original point: looking like a force to be reckoned with is not a substitute for actually being a force to be reckoned with. However, insofar as apparel and state of mind can influence each other for good or ill, it might be something to think about.

I looked into payments for medical reports when we last discussed it and applicants have been required to pay for specialist medical reports for some time before the 2016 guidance, but there may have been two rounds of reports, one paid by police and one paid by applicants, and someone would need to dig out all the previous issues of guidance before 2016 to figure out the exact timeline on that.

However, the 2016 guidance soon broke down after launch - and BASC challenged GP fees - and fought mandatory GP involvement being imposed by police force after police force - but it was fighting the tide - and all of that was discussed at length on the forum. Since then we have had new guidance and statutory guidance. Waiting times for certificate renewals in many police forces are untenable and some forces are not even considering new grants. We now have mandatory GP verification in the process from the police side but some GPs refuse to engage and others charge exorbitant amounts to check records against applicant’s medical declaration forms. All of this is having an impact. The 2022/23 firearms licensing statistics published for England and Wales revealed a year on year 3% drop in firearms certificate holders and a 4% drop in shotgun certificates.

We await news of last year's Home Office consultation on firearms licensing and there might be a fees consultation ahead.

We continue to campaign for ten-year certificates, which would help address some of the issues. Support has been expressed by Government for movement on this and we have recently briefed Labour spokespeople in advance of the next general election. Indeed, it was a Labour MP who first mentioned support for a ten-year certificate in the House of Commons.

Whatever happens on the political and policy front we will keep battling for the shooting community, and foresight is a trickier business than hindsight, so some understanding and support to BASC's efforts would go a long way.

 

[timbrayford]

BASC is trying to improve firearms licensing for all of us and surely that deserves our support. Knocking BASC when they are the very ones fighting our corner is rather divisive and perhaps you could desist from doing so.

Well said Conor!