NRA And Handloading

[Laurie]

So how many times has a bystander been injured in reality? What’s the risk assessment look like? How high is the probability of bystander injury. Then how does that all compare with commercial ammunition?

If you were a Diggle member, you could speak to several old-hands who were witnesses to a fatal accident involving a handload. This was back in pistol shooting days when the cylinder of a 44 Magnum revolver failed and the shooter standing next in the line was killed by a piece of metal blown into his neck.

Norman Clark the Rugby gunsmith and who was (for all I know still is) a member of the NRA's technical/safety committee told me maybe 20 years ago that factory ammunition 'issues' were more common than those involving handloads. However, 20 years ago the ratio of factory to handloaded ammo fired at Bisley and on MoD ranges was far higher than now applies, and amongst the latter there was far less emphasis on 100% performance maximisation. Given some of the things I'm told and occasional pointers like a 6.5X47L case I picked up on a firing point a year or two back, that might be read now as 110% performance. Whether there are large numbers of incidents or not, the fact is that there are some involving handloads, and that even if it is from a very small base, the trend is one of a steady year by year increase, not stable state or reduction.

Whether you agree or not, the NRA is bound by three sets of obligations: a moral one to those who use its ranges; one to the MoD which sets out the range safety rules for the NSC Bisley ranges among others; finally, a legal obligation under national safety legislation to ensure dangerous practices are identified and remedial action is taken.

think incompetence is a bit harsh, carelessly or distracted yes, surly nobody would intentionally due to lack of skill aim to produce dangers ammunition.

As far as I'm concerned, producing dangerous ammunition is nearly always negligence. Lack of knowledge and/or incompetence, even without intent to cause harm, isn't acceptable as a reason / excuse, and whilst a momentary distraction or 'brainwave' is maybe human, it still doesn't excuse negligence.

Think motoring law. There is a guy who did several years prison time, maybe is still doing it, for causing an accident that resulted in other people's deaths because he was distracted for seconds by recovering a sweet and unwrapping it while driving. He accepted full responsibility for his actions whilst you'd say 'But for the grace of God, that could happen to any of us!' You can argue this issue either way and I don't see it as clear-cut either, but legally it's very much so.

 

[HandB]

If you were a Diggle member, you could speak to several old-hands who were witnesses to a fatal accident involving a handload. This was back in pistol shooting days when the cylinder of a 44 Magnum revolver failed and the shooter standing next in the line was killed by a piece of metal blown into his neck.

Norman Clark the Rugby gunsmith and who was (for all I know still is) a member of the NRA's technical/safety committee told me maybe 20 years ago that factory ammunition 'issues' were more common than those involving handloads. However, 20 years ago the ratio of factory to handloaded ammo fired at Bisley and on MoD ranges was far higher than now applies, and amongst the latter there was far less emphasis on 100% performance maximisation. Given some of the things I'm told and occasional pointers like a 6.5X47L case I picked up on a firing point a year or two back, that might be read now as 110% performance. Whether there are large numbers of incidents or not, the fact is that there are some involving handloads, and that even if it is from a very small base, the trend is one of a steady year by year increase, not stable state or reduction.

Whether you agree or not, the NRA is bound by three sets of obligations: a moral one to those who use its ranges; one to the MoD which sets out the range safety rules for the NSC Bisley ranges among others; finally, a legal obligation under national safety legislation to ensure dangerous practices are identified and remedial action is taken.



As far as I'm concerned, producing dangerous ammunition is nearly always negligence. Lack of knowledge and/or incompetence, even without intent to cause harm, isn't acceptable as a reason / excuse, and whilst a momentary distraction or 'brainwave' is maybe human, it still doesn't excuse negligence.

Think motoring law. There is a guy who did several years prison time, maybe is still doing it, for causing an accident that resulted in other people's deaths because he was distracted for seconds by recovering a sweet and unwrapping it while driving. He accepted full responsibility for his actions whilst you'd say 'But for the grace of God, that could happen to any of us!' You can argue this issue either way and I don't see it as clear-cut either, but legally it's very much so.

Yes the irony in this whole situation is that the NRA's own GGG 155gr .308 factory ammunition is proven to be dangerous yet they still keep selling it (with a disclaimer that some of the primers are overpowered). I witnessed a case head separation caused by this factory ammunition a few months ago when a pal was using it. Thankfully the gas escaped safely and no one was hurt (although the brand new, perfectly-headspaced bolt face was gas cut from the leakage which was annoying). He has decided he will only use reloads from now on as they are safer.

 

[Laurie]

Yes the irony in this whole situation is that the NRA's own GGG 155gr .308 factory ammunition is proven to be dangerous yet they still keep selling it (with a disclaimer that some of the primers are overpowered). I witnessed a case head separation caused by this factory ammunition a few months ago when a pal was using it. Thankfully the gas escaped safely and no one was hurt (although the brand new, perfectly-headspaced bolt face was gas cut from the leakage which was annoying). He has decided he will only use reloads from now on as they are safer.

I hadn't heard of any issues with the GGG, but I only occasionally meet up with TR competitors who shoot at Bisley and use NRA ammo. Even those I do know all use handloads for club shooting now.

Ironically, I have a superb spec Bartlein 308 'standard Palma profile' 13-twist barrel blank, but none of my TR competitor friends is interested in it as it's standard SAAMI ie 0.3000" bore and 0.3080" groove diameters because it 'won't give full MVs with NRA ammunition'. Maybe it's becoming desirable again if people want to lower chamber pressures with this ammo!

 

[HandB]

I hadn't heard of any issues with the GGG, but I only occasionally meet up with TR competitors who shoot at Bisley and use NRA ammo. Even those I do know all use handloads for club shooting now.

Ironically, I have a superb spec Bartlein 308 'standard Palma profile' 13-twist barrel blank, but none of my TR competitor friends is interested in it as it's standard SAAMI ie 0.3000" bore and 0.3080" groove diameters because it 'won't give full MVs with NRA ammunition'. Maybe it's becoming desirable again if people want to lower chamber pressures with this ammo!

Here is the NRA webpage explaining about the faulty GGG ammunition they are still selling: Ammunition, Reloading Components and Accessories

 

[Laurie]

Here is the NRA webpage explaining about the faulty GGG ammunition they are still selling: Ammunition, Reloading Components and Accessories

Thanks for that. I find that situation unacceptable and the NRA purchaser disclaimer would seem to be legally dubious, except again for it being the rifles' specifications that are 'awry', and the cartridges can be shown to be CIP-compliant.

So, that comes back again to getting rid of the tight-barrel situation in 'Target Rifle', and that's more than a solely UK issue as it affects Fullbore Rifle, TR and Palma competitors across all ICFRA member countries.

I do wonder too whether the supply from GGG will continue given its location in Lithuania, one of the countries now clearly targeted by Mad Vlad in his recent rewriting of Eastern European history in which it is recategorized as an always-was/always-will-be Greater Russia vassal state and which will return to that status by force if necessary. If that risk persists and I was the Lithuanian minister of defence, I'd be seriously considering a huge increase in weapon and ammo stocks. Whether that's how things turn out obviously depends to a large degree on the political as well as military outcomes of the current Ukrainian conflict. If Mad Vlad gets large chunks of eastern Ukraine and a face-saver deal that allows him to claim he won the war, then look out Baltic states, NATO members or not! If he withdraws his battered forces without gains and even Russian State media can't plausibly deny they were hammered, then local demand for GGG could stay modest. Also, other EU countries, primarily Germany, would likely relapse back into their 30 year old security complacency and keep happily buying Russian gas and underspending on defence. Conversely, the loudly proclaimed German promise of an additional 1 Billion Euros '22 budget one-off defence spend and an ongoing increase to 2% of GDP would almost certainly see a further tightening of the western ammunition and ammunition components supply situation should they go ahead affecting all suppliers.

 

[borbal]

Maybe it's becoming desirable again if people want to lower chamber pressures with this ammo!

GGG ammo is already downloaded because the standard NRA barrel is 298/3065 (as per rule 150) and so would be over pressure with standard CIP approved ammo.

 

[25 Sharps]

I saw that as well, I'm sure it was PPU stuff and it came with the proviso that it could overpressure, I mean it should have just been sent back to the factory for them to sort out

Ggg

 

[Liveonce]

Whether you agree or not, the NRA is bound by three sets of obligations: a moral one to those who use its ranges; one to the MoD which sets out the range safety rules for the NSC Bisley ranges among others; finally, a legal obligation under national safety legislation to ensure dangerous practices are identified and remedial action is taken.


think this needs to say something along the lines

a legal under national safety legislation to ensure dangerous practices are identified and remedial action taken where practical.

And exactly what and by who is the owner of the ”legal national safety legislation” government? HSE?

think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill, incidents are very few and far between having to go back all the way to pre pistol ban days to recall such an event is QED.

 

[Klenchblaize]

The only reason I posted the highlighted paragraph from the RCO Manual was to remind ourselves that a lack of enforcement as of writing does not preclude its use as a springboard for future mandatory NRA certificated training in the dark art of reloading.

If you were to show that wording to someone just starting out on their reloading journey before purchasing a powder manufacturer’s manual, most would-be students would ask “who offers a recognised Home Loaders Certificate L1 course?”

K

 

[borbal]

There was an unrelated incident on a local estate where someone died as the result of an accident, and so HSE became involved. They did not confine themselves to the incident itself, but cast a wide net to make enquiries about all other activities on the estate. One of those activities was the handloading of ammunition by the wildlife manager, who was then required to either used CIP approved ammunition, or to obtain a certificate to show he was competent in reloading safe ammo. If a course in reloading was to be offered by the NRA, with a certificate of competence issued - valid for three years perhaps - I imagine it would be a goldmine...

 

[Klenchblaize]

There was an unrelated incident on a local estate where someone died as the result of an accident, and so HSE became involved. They did not confine themselves to the incident itself, but cast a wide net to make enquiries about all other activities on the estate. One of those activities was the handloading of ammunition by the wildlife manager, who was then required to either used CIP approved ammunition, or to obtain a certificate to show he was competent in reloading safe ammo. If a course in reloading was to be offered by the NRA, with a certificate of competence issued - valid for three years perhaps - I imagine it would be a goldmine...

Well, the SD failure rate would be monumental as most have difficulty in identifying which end of a cartridge the head is to be found.

K

 

[Liveonce]

Let’s hope the manufacture of .17hmr ammo also have to do the NRA course as more incidents of guns being damaged have been reported due to hmr ammo then any hand loaded ammunition in the U.K.

why oh why are we always so keen to burden are selves with more bureaucracy.

If you are not the type of person who can wire a 13amp plug then probably you are not the sort of person who should home load.

 

[HandB]

The people who run GGG need to do a course on how to load cartridges after the fiasco of their faulty 155gr .308 ammo that is still being sold in the NRA shop at Bisley.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Why oh why are we always so keen to burden are selves with more bureaucracy.

Not so much “we” but rather those Organisations that are either said to represent us or who’s business model is geared to revenue generation c/o training.

Hopefully there will be continued push-back from those more enlightened members of the NRA Committee/Board to compulsory reloading training, but ultimately the need could be cemented by other interested parties such as the MOD, HSE and no doubt the Home Office.

Being aware of such a reality doesn’t indicate a desire for such.

K

 

[nCognitos]

My club (Bisley based) runs a handloading course with a strong emphasis on safety and keeping within published loads. You get a user manual and a certificate at the end of it. It's a one day course, morning is theory and the afternoon is everyone making ammunition from start to finish under supervision. We even got shown how to remove a case stuck in a die. Well worth it and from what I hear usually oversubscribed, it is focused on ammunition to CIP standards with full-length sizing and published loads and COL, proper record keeping and trustworthy sources of information, it's designed to provide a safe starting point for a beginner. I have reloaded before, but that was a very long time ago and I found the club course very useful and great value for money. The NRA run a two-day handloading course for £157 and I believe that includes a greater focus on things like headspace measurement and producing accurate target ammunition. The May course is fully booked but there are spaces on the August and November courses.

I enjoyed being able to use a powder thrower, lee dippers and an electronic scale, then on press and hand priming with a couple of different styles of hand primer, to crimp or not to crimp etc.. The benefits of different cleaning methods and trimmers were covered practically, also covered was load development. Actually getting hands-on with the equipment before buying really informed my choices and using different styles of equipment was brilliant and saved me money in the long run. It's also good to know that experienced people who ran the course are available if you have any questions later. Of course, you have to develop your own skills and technique but you need to start somewhere, I was told what the instructor believed were the best choices but also educated to make my own decisions.

Doing a course helps you sift the waterfall of internet information for what is actually useful and safe, it was specifically suggested that we do not use any American reloading data from YouTube or similar. I know this should be obvious but what if it isn't? I know you should have a couple of reloading manuals but if you are a member of the internet generation, it is perhaps not so obvious that the best source of information is an old fashioned book, unless you are told this. People don't learn by magic, they learn by being taught the basics and then experience. If you deliver a good quality training course, why should you not get paid for it? A good training course with a handbook is auditable, uncle Joe down the club telling you the max published load is the start point in load development is not. Just because you have been handloading for 20 years does not automatically mean you are doing it safely.

I have got a press, electronic powder dispenser, dies, tumbler et al and am up to 550 rounds of .303, with the first 100 rounds being for load development. I also have the £35 Lee Loader which I have used with the powder dispenser rather than the dipper. Now I have some experience with one calibre, I will be moving on to reloading 7.5 and .223 ammunition.

Anyway, I am against compulsion or forcing people to do a course but I am also against people hurting themselves or others. I think the best solution is to choose to do a reloading course or get an experienced mentor, with not too many bad habits! Despite this, I can see a handloading course becoming an NRA requirement to shoot your own ammunition at Bisley, with a suitable endorsed SCC card and I expect it will happen this year or next year.

 

[Liveonce]

Hear you go, just watch all episodes and enjoy ……

 

[NP435]

Hear you go, just watch all episodes and enjoy ……

My handloading mentor was not that cute.

 

[Liveonce]

., I can see a handloading course becoming an NRA requirement to shoot your own ammunition at Bisley, with a suitable endorsed SCC card and I expect it will happen this year or next year.

I dread to think how many thousands of home loaded rounds must have been shot in the days of the annual pistol events at Bisley all without incident as far I know, or the need for a SCC card.

Fortunately theses days I do not need to give Bisley/NRA the satisfaction of shooting their or my money.

 

[bluesako]

not had much to do with the nra. are they anti shooting you never hear anything good about them. seem a bunch of idiots to me bs

 

[Klenchblaize]

Not idiots but just like shooters and the service providers who support us there are differing approaches and priorities.

Nothing to do with reloading but a good example is Fultons of Bisley. Visited them today on the off chance they had primers (I’m a glass half-full type of guy) but struggled to get into the shop as their COVID-19 social distancing protocols haven’t changed since the first lockdown: Masks, hand sanitiser and only one punter at a time in the shop.

Their shop so play by their rules. Same for NRA in all matters but mindful in an ideal world the membership would have a moderating influence on their propensity for excess.

K