NRA And Handloading

[borbal]

If you read the RCO handbook it is a requirement to provide certification that the ammunition was prepared in strict accordance with published reloading manuals and that the ME is within limits. You must be also prepared to provide ammunition for chronograph testing.

How does one provide "certification" other than take the ammo to the proof house to test the load? That is what it is coming to.

 

[long_range_rob]

I saw a box of Sako Factory ammunition this week that was loaded with the Barnes TTSX. Four rounds tested in two different rifles, case head flow and primers blown out on all four! Both rifles were checked and their chambers were well within tolerances.

 

[borbal]

Both rifles were checked and their chambers were well within tolerances.

The headspaces might have been correct, but how about the neck diameter? Or the freebore length and diameter? The Proof Houses these days have body diameter gauges, body length gauges (headspace), neck diameter gauges, chamber length gauges (to the start of the throat), freebore diameter gauges and throat length gauges. Only if ALL these are checked can the chamber be described as being "within tolerances".

 

[User00040]

The headspaces might have been correct, but how about the neck diameter? Or the freebore length and diameter? The Proof Houses these days have body diameter gauges, body length gauges (headspace), neck diameter gauges, chamber length gauges (to the start of the throat), freebore diameter gauges and throat length gauges. Only if ALL these are checked can the chamber be described as being "within tolerances".

Seem to recall @dasherman noting that some gunsmiths request the calibre/chambering to be marked as 'non-standard' to avoid scratches from these gauges?

 

[borbal]

Seem to recall @dasherman noting that some gunsmiths request the calibre/chambering to be marked as 'non-standard' to avoid scratches from these gauges?

That will not do for makers of 'fine' guns. If a customer is prepared to drop thirty grand for a classic English hunting rifle, he (it will be a he) will not want to see "non standard" stamped on the barrel.

 

[suburban bushwacker]

Considering that millions of shots are fired at Bisley each year, has anyone got data showing the number of annual accidents caused by factory ammunition (such as the faulty GGG 155gr .308 cartridges that the NRA shop is currently selling and that blew up my pals rifle) versus the the number of annual accidents caused by handloaded ammunition. Until we get these data it is difficult to draw conclusions about the relative risk of factory ammunition vs handloaded ammunition.

Thank you.

 

[zambezi]

Addressing the root issue: reloader safety - I definitely think that those going into reloading should find a competent mentor for the journey.

But even before that, peruse CSL's excellent photo sequence on this forum and watch the RCBS 101 You Tube guide to reloading.

Watch what it takes to do this safely: patience, equipment, dexterity, etc. It is not for everyone.

Overview of the Reloading Process - From Spent Case to Loaded Round

This is intended as an overview of the reloading process explaining the steps required to turn spent brass cases into new loaded rounds. It is aimed at those people who are unfamiliar with the reloading process but if any old hands want to chip in with alternative suggestions then please do - I...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

 

[25 Sharps]

My club has just asked me to provide my handloading info to continue shooting at Bisley with them:

They wanted to know the exact composition of the load, (powder type, charge weight, bullet), full OAL, and what my source data was.

Fortunately was able to provide (not a wildcat load).

In some respects - it makes sense. I'm sure there are a minority of people are trying all manner of weird ass loads to try and eek out some imaginary extra bit of performance. When something happens - it ruins it for everyone.

That's great, provided you don't shoot a wildcat!

 

[25 Sharps]

Addressing the root issue: reloader safety - I definitely think that those going into reloading should find a competent mentor for the journey.

But even before that, peruse CSL's excellent photo sequence on this forum and watch the RCBS 101 You Tube guide to reloading.

Watch what it takes to do this safely: patience, equipment, dexterity, etc. It is not for everyone.

Overview of the Reloading Process - From Spent Case to Loaded Round

This is intended as an overview of the reloading process explaining the steps required to turn spent brass cases into new loaded rounds. It is aimed at those people who are unfamiliar with the reloading process but if any old hands want to chip in with alternative suggestions then please do - I...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

I would add to that, they should read this article and keep it for reference

Primal Rights

Primal Rights

www.primalrights.com

 

[25 Sharps]

I saw a box of Sako Factory ammunition this week that was loaded with the Barnes TTSX. Four rounds tested in two different rifles, case head flow and primers blown out on all four! Both rifles were checked and their chambers were well within tolerances.

Sako brass is soft so it flows even well within pressure limits of the cartridge.

 

[Sharpie]

I would add to that, they should read this article and keep it for reference

Primal Rights

Primal Rights

www.primalrights.com

Thank you for that link. I learnt a lot from it.

As to the general sentiment, getting started in reloading, and maturing as you practice, is not something that I think can be solely self-taught by studying a reloading manual, or more. Studying, not skimming. But that should be the starting point. As to those literally challenged, who prefer to take their education from youtube, well I despair. There are some very good channels which I respect, but also often puffed up with other stuff, to keep their audiences coming back, and their incentivisation rolling in. but also a mighty amount of dross. Learning to distinguish between such content does require some discernment, which requires understanding the fundamentals first. Which, at least for me, is best done by book learning, or reading online articles. I'd rather spend a few hours reading, than the same time or more watching inane and often frankly nonsensical youtube vanity content.

I benefitted from informal training at my club, where we had a basic loading bench set up, and we were shown how to do simple loads for the club 357 magnum rifle, using cast lead bullets on the indoor range. Our own cases from firing club ammo, a small supply of powder, bullets and primers was available, on an honesty basis, to be put into the tea fund jar. A single mild load, ISTR something like 4.5gr Unique with a 158gr bullet. Dispensed from a Lee Autodisc. At that stage most of us didn't have our own rifles or FAC, so we stored our own ammo. there in a cage, for later use.

It taught us the absolute basics, and were watched over like a hawk, until trusted to get on with it ourselves, unsupervised.

Those of us who showed interest were taken under the wing of the experienced reloaders, and sometimes invited back to their homes to learn about loading bottleneck rifle cartridges for use on the fullbore ranges. Or downloaded cast lead for the indoor range, within its range limits. Some, in retrospect, had some idiosyncratic ideas, but, so do I.

The club also had a decent chrono. which could be borrowed.

I am not in disagreement with the idea that those who haven't had this sort of initial education, or a mentor who actually knows what they are doing, would benefit immensely from an organised course. ATM the curriculum for that sort of thing seems pretty ad-hoc, according to the training provider. Not that I have any experience of such.

If, say, the NRA is to be the body to set a standard, well I am open minded about that. Provided they are not the monopolistic training or assessment provider. If this does become a thing, to be allowed to use reloads on certain ranges, much as our competency card system operates, I'll suck it up. Even though of course, in my own mind, I know much better, I'd like to know that those shooting alongside me are supposed to have an adequate level of competency.

 

[Woodsmoke]

Accidents happen that is life, which is why insurance was invented.

Not where reloading is concerned, is my view. I'm the last one to be demanding courses and certificates left, right, and centre, but if someone can't be trusted to follow a basic set of instructions without injuring themselves (or me!) then perhaps it's time to limit their opportunity to do so

 

[Liveonce]

Not where reloading is concerned, is my view. I'm the last one to be demanding courses and certificates left, right, and centre, but if someone can't be trusted to follow a basic set of instructions without injuring themselves (or me!) then perhaps it's time to limit their opportunity to do so

Funny that, they do a course even have to pass two tests then follow a basic set of instructions but every day somebody dies on the roads due to …….. an accident.

must be time to ban all vehicles just to protect you.

 

[Woodsmoke]

must be time to ban all vehicles just to protect you.

Probably be a better idea just to treat idiots as idiots instead of enabling them

 

[25 Sharps]

Thank you for that link. I learnt a lot from it.

As to the general sentiment, getting started in reloading, and maturing as you practice, is not something that I think can be solely self-taught by studying a reloading manual, or more. Studying, not skimming. But that should be the starting point. As to those literally challenged, who prefer to take their education from youtube, well I despair. There are some very good channels which I respect, but also often puffed up with other stuff, to keep their audiences coming back, and their incentivisation rolling in. but also a mighty amount of dross. Learning to distinguish between such content does require some discernment, which requires understanding the fundamentals first. Which, at least for me, is best done by book learning, or reading online articles. I'd rather spend a few hours reading, than the same time or more watching inane and often frankly nonsensical youtube vanity content.

I benefitted from informal training at my club, where we had a basic loading bench set up, and we were shown how to do simple loads for the club 357 magnum rifle, using cast lead bullets on the indoor range. Our own cases from firing club ammo, a small supply of powder, bullets and primers was available, on an honesty basis, to be put into the tea fund jar. A single mild load, ISTR something like 4.5gr Unique with a 158gr bullet. Dispensed from a Lee Autodisc. At that stage most of us didn't have our own rifles or FAC, so we stored our own ammo. there in a cage, for later use.

It taught us the absolute basics, and were watched over like a hawk, until trusted to get on with it ourselves, unsupervised.

Those of us who showed interest were taken under the wing of the experienced reloaders, and sometimes invited back to their homes to learn about loading bottleneck rifle cartridges for use on the fullbore ranges. Or downloaded cast lead for the indoor range, within its range limits. Some, in retrospect, had some idiosyncratic ideas, but, so do I.

The club also had a decent chrono. which could be borrowed.

I am not in disagreement with the idea that those who haven't had this sort of initial education, or a mentor who actually knows what they are doing, would benefit immensely from an organised course. ATM the curriculum for that sort of thing seems pretty ad-hoc, according to the training provider. Not that I have any experience of such.

If, say, the NRA is to be the body to set a standard, well I am open minded about that. Provided they are not the monopolistic training or assessment provider. If this does become a thing, to be allowed to use reloads on certain ranges, much as our competency card system operates, I'll suck it up. Even though of course, in my own mind, I know much better, I'd like to know that those shooting alongside me are supposed to have an adequate level of competency.

No prob’s, it’s a very good article and I try and post it whenever someone starts out or asks about pressure signs.

 

[borbal]

If, say, the NRA is to be the body to set a standard, well I am open minded about that. Provided they are not the monopolistic training or assessment provider.

The NRA may well seek to acquire ISO 21001, say, which would show that they meet a standard for the education they provide. They would then be able to, "...demonstrate (their) ability to support the acquisition and development of competence through teaching, learning or research."

If they do not seek some sort of audited standard of this sort, they would be open to the argument that they are entering a commercial market without any proof that what they are offering is worth the cash they are asking for it, which is something they would need to be very aware of as what they would be offering is safety related. Too, if they did become ISO accredited, it would be hard for anyone else to compete on that basis (market is too small) and they would surely have the market to themselves.

 

[Liveonce]

The NRA may well seek to acquire ISO 21001, say, which would show that they meet a standard for the education they provide. They would then be able to, "...demonstrate (their) ability to support the acquisition and development of competence through teaching, learning or research."

If they do not seek some sort of audited standard of this sort, they would be open to the argument that they are entering a commercial market without any proof that what they are offering is worth the cash they are asking for it, which is something they would need to be very aware of as what they would be offering is safety related. Too, if they did become ISO accredited, it would be hard for anyone else to compete on that basis (market is too small) and they would surely have the market to themselves.

perhaps they should worry and speak out more about the bigger issues facing the future of shooting in the U.K., as they may find they have no pupils that need their ISO accredited courses and may be no need for the NRA.

 

[scrumbag]

Given LANTRA already has accredited providers of loading courses so surely the NRA could be smart enough to just do that?

Also, considering the NRA has a hand loading course (I understand largely cribbed from the BSRC's course...) I think that might be a smart course of action...

Scrummy

 

[borbal]

I see that LANTRA are ISO 9001, which is surprising as this it not the standard for teaching and LANTRA seem to have "teaching quality courses" as their main business. LANTRA also seem to be tacitly setting up their own standard as they publicise their course as, "LANTRA Approved", whatever that means. There was a time, some decades ago, when ISO 9001 was a broad umbrella which covered pretty much everything. But that is no longer the case.

I think there is no doubt that in this day and age, the NRA cannot offer a course on handloading - a safety topic - without some accreditation which shows that what they are offering has been audited to show that it delivers what it claims.

 

[bluesako]

its just another nra money spinner bs